~Meghan

In response to:
“I am of course most interested in Driscoll’s comment that he is unable to worship someone he can beat up. Strangely enough this would seem that he is unable to worship Jesus. As John Howard Yoder pointed out in reflection on John 1, the proclamation that the Word became flesh “does not simply mean that God became tangible. It means he became weak, undignified, vulnerable. “

You’ll notice I haven’t really been defending him all that much. Mostly I’ve been defending the Bible….

“Verses like “I am the way, the truth, the light, etc…” have many connotations and have been translated so many different times they should not be taken literally.”

Well, that’s your opinion. :)

“But I think there is one thing we can agree on – this discussion has gotten way out of hand”

Yeah, sorry bout that….

“If your version of Jesus makes you happy then run with it. I would beg in closing that you realize it is not the only one and just maybe, may be incorrect.”

Right back at ya! :P

Thanks for the discussion, God bless.

1. No, because Mark is not God…The Bible that has the Jesus quotes you love says so.

— If you do not believe in Mark then why do you defend him so? My point here is that even the word “believe” can have different connotations. Verses like “I am the way, the truth, the light, etc…” have many connotations and have been translated so many different times they should not be taken literally. I have quoted the Bible’s version of Jesus’ words because there are no other sources of them – which in and of itself is something to consider. But I think there is one thing we can agree on – this discussion has gotten way out of hand and after reviewing my comments I realize I should have stayed away like I told myself to in the first place.
If your version of Jesus makes you happy then run with it. I would beg in closing that you realize it is not the only one and just maybe, may be incorrect.
Peace.

You were directly addressing my claims, I responded. I don’t get where you’re going with this.

“Sez you! You’re the one clinging to scripture as the “ultimate truth”. I’m the one saying it should be taken with a shaker of salt…”

Then why don’t you apply the same line of reasoning to Jesus’s words? You’ve quoted Him so much and so favorably, yet every quote came from the Bible. So why are you so hostile to the rest of it?

“Sorry, friend. Not a mean dig, just an observation.”

Yes yes, much in the same way that Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens make ‘observations’…..and by observations I mean non reasonable judgements….

“Who upheld the same ancient law Mark D. loves to reference and would have us devolve back to if he could…”

sigh….you missed my point. Jesus was still saying that they should BELIEVE His words and not those of the Pharisees. It’s not just about simple rationality.

“The very community in question…. Again you are referencing the condemned killers statement of innocence as proof of his innocence….”

Er…no. apparently it’s only Driscoll who has been called into question in this instance. Besides, even people who aren’t christian could debate this verse back and forth till the cows come home….

“Do you believe in Mark Driscoll? If a fireman were saving you from a burning building, would you believe in his training and abilities? If I told you Mark and/or the fireman were really God would you believe me? Read those last three questions a few times and I hope you get my meaning…”

1. No, because Mark is not God…The Bible that has the Jesus quotes you love says so.
2. I would trust the fireman. The Bible that has the Jesus quotes you love tells me to respect authority…
3. No I would not believe you…The Bible that has the Jesus quotes you love doesn’t say so….see where I’m going with THIS?

As to believing because the Bible says so, plenty of evidence exists to verify the truth of Scriptures. I do not believe just because I was brainwashed by my Church thank yo very much.

“Actually that verse refers to how convoluted adults reasoning can become when tempered by religion and law…. nothing mind blowing… just basic fact that Disney, Pixar, Tool, and other artists have stated throughout the centuries….”

Sigh….Then what about having “Faith like a child.” As Jesus said? You clearly miss the intent of these verses. Yes, mindless religion blinds men, but that’s why Christianity is a RELATIONSHIP based on FAITH….

“We need to talk in person so I can dump the hundreds of pounds of varied literature on you to prove this Bart guy is NOT the only one… You really need to explore resources outside of your church or related sites…..”

I have. I truly feel Bart is the only skeptic who has actually come up with a few good points. A lot of the other ones I looked up aren’t trustworthy…

“Fuck the Jesus Seminar. Those guys are fags.”

0_O? ooookkkkkaaaaayyyy…..

“He” isn’t. His WAY is. Whatever happened to the way? Oh, yeah…. Paul.”

I am going to repeat this verse one more time…and by then I hope you get it memorized….”I am the WAY, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father except through ME.” John 14:6 Jesus is the way. Not his teachings, not logic, not religion. Jesus is the WAY.

“I moved up here from a strawberry farm in Louisiana. Beautiful place. Highly recommended. Big, big berrys! I agree. Probably the best of natures sweet fruits!’

Hmmm….sounds nice! :)

“Just don’t be pissed at me if you leave the scene an agnostic with Christian questions…..”

Nah, I’m good. Thanks.

“All about you” in the colloquial sense. I apparently am having a discussion with a literalist not in possession of a functioning figurative speech filter”

Because you haven’t been engaging in figurative speech. You accused me of thinking the comments were ‘all about me’, when you were directly answering my claims, not the other Joshua’s.

— I specifically addressed any “Joshua’s as well as anyone else who might be reading” in the post being referenced….. not just you… but your assertion that I was “directly addressing [your] claims” just proves my point even further….

“which makes sense seeing as how you interpret the Bible the same way).”

Sez who? For the most part, the verse I have quoted have been literal verses, not figurative. If you want, we can go into the themes of Revelation(of which I attribute more symbolism and figurative prose) and then you can judge how I interpret Scripture.

— Sez you! You’re the one clinging to scripture as the “ultimate truth”. I’m the one saying it should be taken with a shaker of salt…

“I would never accuse someone of outright lying so much as being deluded and inconsistent to the point of not being a credible self witness.”

So I’m deluded….nice…

— Sorry, friend. Not a mean dig, just an observation.

“Mark 7:14-28 is one of several great examples where Jesus not only asked people to reason while he explained a simple concept to them which was counter intuitive to their existing laws, but he actually called them “dull” when they didn’t get it the first time because they were too wrapped up in their hard-boiled beliefs to follow His reasoning.”

Yes, but this is also asking them to believe His words over the Pharisees.

— Who upheld the same ancient law Mark D. loves to reference and would have us devolve back to if he could…

What do you say about verses like “Believe in The Son of Man and You will be saved.” Or “….that whosoever BELIEVES in Him will not perish…” etc…Belief is central to the Christian faith.

— Do you believe in Mark Driscoll? If a fireman were saving you from a burning building, would you believe in his training and abilities? If I told you Mark and/or the fireman were really God would you believe me? Read those last three questions a few times and I hope you get my meaning…

“The use of the figure of Caesar on the Roman coin precluding the whole “render unto Caesar what is his, render unto God what is His” thing was also an instance where Jesus demanded people abandon their beliefs through reason.”

How so? And actually the meaning of this verse is debated in the Christian community.

— The very community in question…. Again you are referencing the condemned killers statement of innocence as proof of his innocence….

“Too many more to list but if you read your Bible like a story and not a “magic book of truth” it all makes far more sense.”

You should read Luke 10:21, that might blow your mind. I do not read the Bible like a ‘magic book of Truth.” It IS the truth, pure and simple, otherwise you have no basis on anything Jesus said.

— Actually that verse refers to how convoluted adults reasoning can become when tempered by religion and law…. nothing mind blowing… just basic fact that Disney, Pixar, Tool, and other artists have stated throughout the centuries….

“Most scholar scholars believe it is a fairly accurate source of early Hebrew land and family records, poetry, moralistic yet allegorical stories, as well as evidence of church corruption existing from the time of Paul to nowadays.”

Again, Bart Erhman is the only one who fits that criteria.

— We need to talk in person so I can dump the hundreds of pounds of varied literature on you to prove this Bart guy is NOT the only one… You really need to explore resources outside of your church or related sites…..

Even most of the Jesus Seminar

— Fuck the Jesus Seminar. Those guys are fags.

(extremely liberal and biased against the Bible) Believes that Jesus was God’s son, they just don’t see Him as being the exclusive way to salvation.

— “He” isn’t. His WAY is. Whatever happened to the way? Oh, yeah…. Paul.

“You love those baskets of mixed fruit, my friend.”

I like Strawberies!!!!!

— I moved up here from a strawberry farm in Louisiana. Beautiful place. Highly recommended. Big, big berrys! I agree. Probably the best of natures sweet fruits!

“And you as well.”

Thanks! ….You too……TAG! you’re it!

— You got my email address and any time you would like to meet and discuss in person, I’m game. I promise the only time I get loud is if I get excited like that goofy professor from “Back to the Future”…. Otherwise I am laid back, open to criticism, and totally calm. Just don’t be pissed at me if you leave the scene an agnostic with Christian questions…..

As for R.O. Flyer – join in or shut up.

Because you haven’t been engaging in figurative speech. You accused me of thinking the comments were ‘all about me’, when you were directly answering my claims, not the other Joshua’s.

“which makes sense seeing as how you interpret the Bible the same way).”

Sez who? For the most part, the verse I have quoted have been literal verses, not figurative. If you want, we can go into the themes of Revelation(of which I attribute more symbolism and figurative prose) and then you can judge how I interpret Scripture.

“I would never accuse someone of outright lying so much as being deluded and inconsistent to the point of not being a credible self witness.”

So I’m deluded….nice…

“Mark 7:14-28 is one of several great examples where Jesus not only asked people to reason while he explained a simple concept to them which was counter intuitive to their existing laws, but he actually called them “dull” when they didn’t get it the first time because they were too wrapped up in their hard-boiled beliefs to follow His reasoning.”

Yes, but this is also asking them to believe His words over the Pharisees. What do you say about verses like “Believe in The Son of Man and You will be saved.” Or “….that whosoever BELIEVES in Him will not perish…” etc…Belief is central to the Christian faith.

“The use of the figure of Caesar on the Roman coin precluding the whole “render unto Caesar what is his, render unto God what is His” thing was also an instance where Jesus demanded people abandon their beliefs through reason.”

How so? And actually the meaning of this verse is debated in the Christian community.

“Too many more to list but if you read your Bible like a story and not a “magic book of truth” it all makes far more sense.”

You should read Luke 10:21, that might blow your mind. I do not read the Bible like a ‘magic book of Truth.” It IS the truth, pure and simple, otherwise you have no basis on anything Jesus said.

“Most scholar scholars believe it is a fairly accurate source of early Hebrew land and family records, poetry, moralistic yet allegorical stories, as well as evidence of church corruption existing from the time of Paul to nowadays.”

Again, Bart Erhman is the only one who fits that criteria. Even most of the Jesus Seminar(extremely liberal and biased against the Bible) Believes that Jesus was God’s son, they just don’t see Him as being the exclusive way to salvation.

“You love those baskets of mixed fruit, my friend.”

I like Strawberies!!!!!

“And you as well.”

Thanks! ….You too……TAG! you’re it!

1. I am the only one who has been commenting recently as of late
2. There are 2 Joshua’s(me and one other who hasn’t commented for a while) that kinda narrows that down
3. I know you are referring to me because you said “You couldn’t offend me if you tried.” The other Joshua was not concerned about that, I was.

— I still count three but oh well…. it matters not.

I do not think your comments are “All about me”. If I did I would respond to them in their entirety.

— “All about you” in the colloquial sense. I apparently am having a discussion with a literalist not in possession of a functioning figurative speech filter (which makes sense seeing as how you interpret the Bible the same way).

“And just because you say you don’t fill a vacuum with religion does not make it so.”

So…Are you calling me a liar? Just wondering.

— I would never accuse someone of outright lying so much as being deluded and inconsistent to the point of not being a credible self witness.

“The only way to convince me of something is with proof and reason. The same stuff Jesus demanded of his own contemporaries.”

He did no such thing. He asked men to follow Him, He couldn’t care less about proof that people had for their arguments, since He already had all truth.

— Sorry man but I gotta call you out on this one. Mark 7:14-28 is one of several great examples where Jesus not only asked people to reason while he explained a simple concept to them which was counter intuitive to their existing laws, but he actually called them “dull” when they didn’t get it the first time because they were too wrapped up in their hard-boiled beliefs to follow His reasoning. The use of the figure of Caesar on the Roman coin precluding the whole “render unto Caesar what is his, render unto God what is His” thing was also an instance where Jesus demanded people abandon their beliefs through reason. Too many more to list but if you read your Bible like a story and not a “magic book of truth” it all makes far more sense.

“(Sort of like saying, “The Bible is true and literal because some other guys said it was and it says it is too…”) ”

Which I have not said. Most scholars believe in the Bible’s credibility, that’s a fact.

— Most “biblical scholars” believe the Bibles credibility as some sort of truth device. Most scholar scholars believe it is a fairly accurate source of early Hebrew land and family records, poetry, moralistic yet allegorical stories, as well as evidence of church corruption existing from the time of Paul to nowadays. You love those baskets of mixed fruit, my friend.

God bless!

— And you as well.

1. I am the only one who has been commenting recently as of late
2. There are 2 Joshua’s(me and one other who hasn’t commented for a while) that kinda narrows that down
3. I know you are referring to me because you said “You couldn’t offend me if you tried.” The other Joshua was not concerned about that, I was.

I do not think your comments are “All about me”. If I did I would respond to them in their entirety.

“And just because you say you don’t fill a vacuum with religion does not make it so.”

So…Are you calling me a liar? Just wondering.

“The only way to convince me of something is with proof and reason. The same stuff Jesus demanded of his own contemporaries.”

He did no such thing. He asked men to follow Him, He couldn’t care less about proof that people had for their arguments, since He already had all truth.

“(Sort of like saying, “The Bible is true and literal because some other guys said it was and it says it is too…”) ”

Which I have not said. Most scholars believe in the Bible’s credibility, that’s a fact.

God bless!