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	<title>Comments on: Abortion, Defensive Violence, and Moral Consistency</title>
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	<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/06/01/abortion-defensive-violence-and-moral-consistency/</link>
	<description>Where youthful Barthianism never dies</description>
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		<title>By: Nick</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/06/01/abortion-defensive-violence-and-moral-consistency/comment-page-1/#comment-8539</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 04:43:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2408#comment-8539</guid>
		<description>Ohh.  So if the government sanctioned the killing of a particular race or religious group, for example, justified through the standard procedures of law, I would have no right to unlawfully attempt to stop it -- because that&#039;s the difference &quot;between actual law and mere personal judgments of right and wrong.&quot;  Furthermore, if I were a legal agent of the government, I&#039;d be morally obligated to follow out the order to perform the killing, as God authorized the government to wield the sword.  Romans 13 and all that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ohh.  So if the government sanctioned the killing of a particular race or religious group, for example, justified through the standard procedures of law, I would have no right to unlawfully attempt to stop it &#8212; because that&#8217;s the difference &#8220;between actual law and mere personal judgments of right and wrong.&#8221;  Furthermore, if I were a legal agent of the government, I&#8217;d be morally obligated to follow out the order to perform the killing, as God authorized the government to wield the sword.  Romans 13 and all that.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam Morton</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/06/01/abortion-defensive-violence-and-moral-consistency/comment-page-1/#comment-8440</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Morton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 18:59:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2408#comment-8440</guid>
		<description>Sorry, Halden, that&#039;s a tremendously bad argument.  What you&#039;ve said, in effect, is that if you&#039;re not a pacifist you must condone outright vigilantism.

Antonio has it right--and this isn&#039;t just Hobbes.  It&#039;s basically every conception of government and civil society in the history of the world stacked against your reasoning.

It&#039;s fairly simple, really.  I have no problem saying Tiller deserved to die--but the right to kill has been confined to a specially defined office.  We do this with all sorts of things.  Cops can pull people over and write traffic tickets.  I can&#039;t (even if I really, really think somebody&#039;s driving badly).  The President can order soldiers into combat.  I can&#039;t (even if I really, really think they might help).  And so on.  When we violate these rules, civilization collapses--we get pure chaos (and a LOT of violence).  So this is the difference between actual law and mere personal judgments of right and wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, Halden, that&#8217;s a tremendously bad argument.  What you&#8217;ve said, in effect, is that if you&#8217;re not a pacifist you must condone outright vigilantism.</p>
<p>Antonio has it right&#8211;and this isn&#8217;t just Hobbes.  It&#8217;s basically every conception of government and civil society in the history of the world stacked against your reasoning.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s fairly simple, really.  I have no problem saying Tiller deserved to die&#8211;but the right to kill has been confined to a specially defined office.  We do this with all sorts of things.  Cops can pull people over and write traffic tickets.  I can&#8217;t (even if I really, really think somebody&#8217;s driving badly).  The President can order soldiers into combat.  I can&#8217;t (even if I really, really think they might help).  And so on.  When we violate these rules, civilization collapses&#8211;we get pure chaos (and a LOT of violence).  So this is the difference between actual law and mere personal judgments of right and wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: Antonio Manetti</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/06/01/abortion-defensive-violence-and-moral-consistency/comment-page-1/#comment-8417</link>
		<dc:creator>Antonio Manetti</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 05:39:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2408#comment-8417</guid>
		<description>For the sake of public order, we base our government on the principle that the state must have a monopoly on violence.  As Thomas Hobbes said in &quot;Leviathon&quot;:

&lt;i&gt;For the laws of nature, as justice, equity, modesty, mercy, and, in sum, doing to others as we would be done to, of themselves, without the terror of some power to cause them to be observed, are contrary to our natural passions, that carry us to partiality, pride, revenge, and the like. And covenants, without the sword, are but words and of no strength to secure a man at all. Therefore, notwithstanding the laws of nature (which every one hath then kept, when he has the will to keep them, when he can do it safely), if there be no power erected, or not great enough for our security, every man will and may lawfully rely on his own strength and art for caution against all other men.&lt;/i&gt;

There are exceptions, such as killing in self-defense. Although, in my opinion, an individual who does so lawfully is effectively acting as an agent of the state.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For the sake of public order, we base our government on the principle that the state must have a monopoly on violence.  As Thomas Hobbes said in &#8220;Leviathon&#8221;:</p>
<p><i>For the laws of nature, as justice, equity, modesty, mercy, and, in sum, doing to others as we would be done to, of themselves, without the terror of some power to cause them to be observed, are contrary to our natural passions, that carry us to partiality, pride, revenge, and the like. And covenants, without the sword, are but words and of no strength to secure a man at all. Therefore, notwithstanding the laws of nature (which every one hath then kept, when he has the will to keep them, when he can do it safely), if there be no power erected, or not great enough for our security, every man will and may lawfully rely on his own strength and art for caution against all other men.</i></p>
<p>There are exceptions, such as killing in self-defense. Although, in my opinion, an individual who does so lawfully is effectively acting as an agent of the state.</p>
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		<title>By: Antonio Manetti</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/06/01/abortion-defensive-violence-and-moral-consistency/comment-page-1/#comment-8405</link>
		<dc:creator>Antonio Manetti</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 00:16:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2408#comment-8405</guid>
		<description>The use of violence in such cases is sanctioned by ethics and law.

The point is that individuals don&#039;t get to unilaterally make the rules about when the use of lethal force is permissable.

Why is this even an issue?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The use of violence in such cases is sanctioned by ethics and law.</p>
<p>The point is that individuals don&#8217;t get to unilaterally make the rules about when the use of lethal force is permissable.</p>
<p>Why is this even an issue?</p>
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		<title>By: Richard DM</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/06/01/abortion-defensive-violence-and-moral-consistency/comment-page-1/#comment-8375</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard DM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 18:35:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2408#comment-8375</guid>
		<description>I can understand that this man may &quot;believe&quot; that US courts were incapable of serving justice, and that Roeder &quot;feels obligated by justice&quot;  but  the logical conclusion of your comment is a green light for vigilante law mob rule - dispensing justice based on what will inevitably be unsubstantiated and subjective belief!  Incredible!  Even to cite Terminator: Salvation as what, your point of reference?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can understand that this man may &#8220;believe&#8221; that US courts were incapable of serving justice, and that Roeder &#8220;feels obligated by justice&#8221;  but  the logical conclusion of your comment is a green light for vigilante law mob rule &#8211; dispensing justice based on what will inevitably be unsubstantiated and subjective belief!  Incredible!  Even to cite Terminator: Salvation as what, your point of reference?</p>
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		<title>By: Steven Kippel</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/06/01/abortion-defensive-violence-and-moral-consistency/comment-page-1/#comment-8367</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven Kippel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 17:29:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2408#comment-8367</guid>
		<description>I think you misunderstand the equation. The support of the invasion of Iraq is (well, it&#039;s changed a few times) to protect their citizens from harm from their evil dictator. This is a parallel when you consider Roeder was defending babies from the abortionist.

The parallel is Roeder-Military and Tiller-Hussein</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you misunderstand the equation. The support of the invasion of Iraq is (well, it&#8217;s changed a few times) to protect their citizens from harm from their evil dictator. This is a parallel when you consider Roeder was defending babies from the abortionist.</p>
<p>The parallel is Roeder-Military and Tiller-Hussein</p>
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		<title>By: Halden</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/06/01/abortion-defensive-violence-and-moral-consistency/comment-page-1/#comment-8364</link>
		<dc:creator>Halden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 16:35:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2408#comment-8364</guid>
		<description>Or, to put it more simply, are you saying that if someone was shooting up an office building, you wouldn&#039;t use lethal force to stop it because of...humility?

I think not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Or, to put it more simply, are you saying that if someone was shooting up an office building, you wouldn&#8217;t use lethal force to stop it because of&#8230;humility?</p>
<p>I think not.</p>
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		<title>By: Halden</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/06/01/abortion-defensive-violence-and-moral-consistency/comment-page-1/#comment-8363</link>
		<dc:creator>Halden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 16:33:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2408#comment-8363</guid>
		<description>Unfortunately you haven&#039;t shown how such an accusation is false. What you describe as humility is really just indecision. We don&#039;t always know the consequences of our actions, so its best to refrain. That doesn&#039;t have much purchase with me.

All you&#039;re doing is making a distinction that indicates no real difference.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unfortunately you haven&#8217;t shown how such an accusation is false. What you describe as humility is really just indecision. We don&#8217;t always know the consequences of our actions, so its best to refrain. That doesn&#8217;t have much purchase with me.</p>
<p>All you&#8217;re doing is making a distinction that indicates no real difference.</p>
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		<title>By: tom trevethan</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/06/01/abortion-defensive-violence-and-moral-consistency/comment-page-1/#comment-8362</link>
		<dc:creator>tom trevethan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 16:29:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2408#comment-8362</guid>
		<description>That is not an argument from pragmatism.  It is an argument that arises from  the virtue of humility, namely, that we are required to respect the unintended consequences of any action, especially one involving &quot;taking another human life,&quot; &quot;the gravest crime imaginable.  And this magnified since this taking of another human life contains no public due process of justice and adjudication.

One might expect that any serious disciple of Jesus might find a way to value  humility.  And is it not the case that Biblically observent Christians folk  ought to be concerned for procedural justice in a world in which God has given the state the right to bear the &quot;sword.&quot;  I do understand that a commitment to unconditional pacifism makes this second consideration seem like a dodge, but for those of us who cannot share the pacifist vision as a matter of conscience, it advances neither understanding nor Christian faithfulness to make the false accusation that these matters all turn on mere pragmatism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That is not an argument from pragmatism.  It is an argument that arises from  the virtue of humility, namely, that we are required to respect the unintended consequences of any action, especially one involving &#8220;taking another human life,&#8221; &#8220;the gravest crime imaginable.  And this magnified since this taking of another human life contains no public due process of justice and adjudication.</p>
<p>One might expect that any serious disciple of Jesus might find a way to value  humility.  And is it not the case that Biblically observent Christians folk  ought to be concerned for procedural justice in a world in which God has given the state the right to bear the &#8220;sword.&#8221;  I do understand that a commitment to unconditional pacifism makes this second consideration seem like a dodge, but for those of us who cannot share the pacifist vision as a matter of conscience, it advances neither understanding nor Christian faithfulness to make the false accusation that these matters all turn on mere pragmatism.</p>
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		<title>By: Halden</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/06/01/abortion-defensive-violence-and-moral-consistency/comment-page-1/#comment-8327</link>
		<dc:creator>Halden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 18:35:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2408#comment-8327</guid>
		<description>I still don&#039;t find an argument from pragmatism convincing, at least as it relates to the moral question.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I still don&#8217;t find an argument from pragmatism convincing, at least as it relates to the moral question.</p>
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		<title>By: Antonio Manetti</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/06/01/abortion-defensive-violence-and-moral-consistency/comment-page-1/#comment-8326</link>
		<dc:creator>Antonio Manetti</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 18:34:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2408#comment-8326</guid>
		<description>To quote Dreher&#039;s line of argument directly:

&lt;i&gt;&quot;The answer, I think, has to do with prudence. We live in a society and a culture in which there is wide disagreement about the moral personhood of the unborn child (or, if you prefer, &quot;fetus&quot;). Taking another human life is the gravest crime imaginable. If one is prepared to do that, one had better believe that one has no other choice, and that the stakes are radically high. The consequences for introducing lawless violence into a society, even in a righteous cause, are unpredictable, and stands to bring about a worse evil than the evil the violence is designed to fight.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Since I read Dreher&#039;s prudence argument a little differently,  found it hard to dismiss out of hand.  To me, it&#039;s not simply a matter of expediency, such as avoiding bad publicity. If so, that would be a weak argument indeed.  Rather, Dreher is saying that, as often happens in real life, the choice is between two evils.  Of the two, he believes sanctioning the murder of the abortionist on moral grounds is risky because it leads to the possibilityt that others may find it easier to act as judge, jury and executioner.  If that happens, where does it stop?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To quote Dreher&#8217;s line of argument directly:</p>
<p><i>&#8220;The answer, I think, has to do with prudence. We live in a society and a culture in which there is wide disagreement about the moral personhood of the unborn child (or, if you prefer, &#8220;fetus&#8221;). Taking another human life is the gravest crime imaginable. If one is prepared to do that, one had better believe that one has no other choice, and that the stakes are radically high. The consequences for introducing lawless violence into a society, even in a righteous cause, are unpredictable, and stands to bring about a worse evil than the evil the violence is designed to fight.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Since I read Dreher&#8217;s prudence argument a little differently,  found it hard to dismiss out of hand.  To me, it&#8217;s not simply a matter of expediency, such as avoiding bad publicity. If so, that would be a weak argument indeed.  Rather, Dreher is saying that, as often happens in real life, the choice is between two evils.  Of the two, he believes sanctioning the murder of the abortionist on moral grounds is risky because it leads to the possibilityt that others may find it easier to act as judge, jury and executioner.  If that happens, where does it stop?</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/06/01/abortion-defensive-violence-and-moral-consistency/comment-page-1/#comment-8316</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 13:34:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2408#comment-8316</guid>
		<description>Reminds me of Slavoj Zizek talking about the &quot;obscene&quot; other side of political or ideological movements. E.g.: Publicly one can be a nationalist to feel good about one&#039;s country or people, but the obscene unspoken other side of this is that one can then resent/despise other countries or people. The obscene other side of the pro-life movements concern for the unborn appears to be that some want to play the role of the angel of death.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reminds me of Slavoj Zizek talking about the &#8220;obscene&#8221; other side of political or ideological movements. E.g.: Publicly one can be a nationalist to feel good about one&#8217;s country or people, but the obscene unspoken other side of this is that one can then resent/despise other countries or people. The obscene other side of the pro-life movements concern for the unborn appears to be that some want to play the role of the angel of death.</p>
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		<title>By: Halden</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/06/01/abortion-defensive-violence-and-moral-consistency/comment-page-1/#comment-8306</link>
		<dc:creator>Halden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 02:42:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2408#comment-8306</guid>
		<description>Nate, that might fly for your run of the mill abortionist. But Tiller was unique in that he would perform the most late-term abortions of anyone in the entire country. He performed abortions that no other abortionist in the country would. As such, there&#039;s a strong argument to be made that his actions did really, and significantly prevent many pregnancies from being terminated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nate, that might fly for your run of the mill abortionist. But Tiller was unique in that he would perform the most late-term abortions of anyone in the entire country. He performed abortions that no other abortionist in the country would. As such, there&#8217;s a strong argument to be made that his actions did really, and significantly prevent many pregnancies from being terminated.</p>
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		<title>By: Nate W</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/06/01/abortion-defensive-violence-and-moral-consistency/comment-page-1/#comment-8303</link>
		<dc:creator>Nate W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 01:37:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2408#comment-8303</guid>
		<description>One thing that&#039;s important to consider is that it&#039;s not at all clear how killing someone like Tiller would actually save any lives.  Abortion is legal, and there is demand for it to be performed, so even without any particular doctor being alive to do the deed, somebody&#039;s else is going to come along to meet the demand.  This is not like a case in which, say, an armed madman is about to open fire on a room full of innocent people whose lives I could save if I took a shot at the gunman.  Pro-lifers simply aren&#039;t going to save lives in that way, as long as there are still people willing to have and perform abortions.  I don&#039;t think you have to be a pacifist to say that it&#039;s wrong to kill abortion doctors.  You just have to realize that killing them isn&#039;t going to accomplish anything good; it&#039;ll just bring about more death rather than save lives, like fighting a war that you cannot possibly win.  That&#039;s reason enough to reject it as a legitimate moral option, in my opinion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One thing that&#8217;s important to consider is that it&#8217;s not at all clear how killing someone like Tiller would actually save any lives.  Abortion is legal, and there is demand for it to be performed, so even without any particular doctor being alive to do the deed, somebody&#8217;s else is going to come along to meet the demand.  This is not like a case in which, say, an armed madman is about to open fire on a room full of innocent people whose lives I could save if I took a shot at the gunman.  Pro-lifers simply aren&#8217;t going to save lives in that way, as long as there are still people willing to have and perform abortions.  I don&#8217;t think you have to be a pacifist to say that it&#8217;s wrong to kill abortion doctors.  You just have to realize that killing them isn&#8217;t going to accomplish anything good; it&#8217;ll just bring about more death rather than save lives, like fighting a war that you cannot possibly win.  That&#8217;s reason enough to reject it as a legitimate moral option, in my opinion.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/06/01/abortion-defensive-violence-and-moral-consistency/comment-page-1/#comment-8294</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 20:24:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2408#comment-8294</guid>
		<description>I can see that now, but it wasn&#039;t apparent when I posted, or before adam posted the &quot;sissies&quot; comment. Chalk one up to being new to the blog, dude!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can see that now, but it wasn&#8217;t apparent when I posted, or before adam posted the &#8220;sissies&#8221; comment. Chalk one up to being new to the blog, dude!</p>
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