Comments on: Why Modernity is Not a Christian Heresy

By: roger flyer

roger flyer — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 16:36:25 +0000

Or ‘Why Mark Driscoll is too sexy for his (hair) shirt.’

By: Halden

Halden — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 18:22:43 +0000

And then the internet will explode.

By: kim fabricius

kim fabricius — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 18:19:49 +0000

So combine the two threads: “Why Modernity is Not a Christian Heresy – but Mark Driscoll is”.

By: Halden

Halden — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 17:34:06 +0000

Not longer than the original Mark Driscoll post. That one is still the record-holder.

By: roger flyer

roger flyer — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 17:23:16 +0000

I can’t believe this post on modernity (or is it about heresy) has generated a longer string than Mark Driscoll!

By: roger flyer

roger flyer — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 13:17:30 +0000

Heretic.

By: Dave Belcher

Dave Belcher — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 12:23:48 +0000

Sorry: both my replies to Steve and to Halden were fleshed out a bit here in these two comments!!

By: Dave Belcher

Dave Belcher — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 12:19:45 +0000

Halden, perhaps a re-thinking of this term “catholic” (small c of course) is what is necessary. I’m not out to berate the Roman Catholic church here, but I think the difference you are drawing on is not truly between Free church/Anabaptist and “catholic” since in my mind the Free church/Anabaptists are all about catholicity…and Yoder seems clear about that. The problem is not with catholicity, but its use, or more precisely, its possession.

By: Dave Belcher

Dave Belcher — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 12:10:27 +0000

I really wanted to stay out of this conversation, but I feel it needed adding, Prof. Long, that perhaps a deeper plumbing of the true depths of Reformed theology is necessary, then, if this is your conclusion. There is this tacit assumption that runs in so much present theology that Reformed theology is devoid of catholic sensibilities; I really must wonder what sources folks are drawing from, if any, to reach such conclusions, however. I find it to be a truly absurd claim that has hardly any basis in real Reformation-historical scholarship. In fact, the deeper I get into Reformation history and theology, the more “catholic” I find much of it to be…

By: Chris Donato

Chris Donato — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 11:04:51 +0000

But just because the last century betrays a rather static ethos among the Reformed, the Westminsterian Princetonians were all about semper reformanda, holding to their confession loosely enough to be self-critical and even offer correctives when necessary. It was only until American Reformed folk started aligning themselves with the Fundamentalists that this begain to change. Besides, it's silly to simply assume that a purer form of semper reformanda necessarily eschews confessions. That's just hyper-modernist gobbly-gook, of which Halden only occasionally imbibes—thankfully (and ironically) .

By: Hill

Hill — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 06:17:53 +0000

/thread

By: Chris Donato

Chris Donato — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 03:49:21 +0000

Should be: “The same holds true with respect to modernity, and….” Boy, it is late.

By: Daniel Imburgia

Daniel Imburgia — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 03:29:20 +0000

Hello, many years ago (early 80’s) at a (un-named for now) Catholic University (in the Seattle area) I was invited to a clandestine ‘popcorn Eucharist.’ Attending were a lot of ‘radical’ Nuns (mostly Maryknollers, some of whom were killed in El Salvador) and women’s studies prof’s and grad students etc. (do they still offer those courses). It all seemed very subversive at the time. As I recall, we all put a kernel into one of those new fangled (modernist?) air-poppers, and named our kernel with one aspect of our lives that needed transformation (I don’t recall what I named my kernel or what needed transforming). Then we passed around the bowl of popped/transformed popcorn and a Styrofoam cup of wine while one of the Sisters performed a Eucharistic liturgy. Well, you can imagine what the ‘Black-robes’ and Univ. authorities upstairs might have made of all this (if this was the 15th century I don’t have to tell you what might have gotten popped). However, the Archbishop (Hunthausen) was thought by many to hold some fringy and un-orthodox opinions. Seems he attended and allowed a RC church to be used for a gay wedding (though the wedding itself was protestant I think), as well as attending some anti-nuclear protests and homilizing what sounded an awful lot like ‘liberation theology.’ Well, all this eventually came to the attention of Cardinal Ratzinger (we used to affectionately call him Luca Brazzi from the God-father), the Popes enforcer, and Rome sent out a minder to shadow Hunthausen around and nip any heresies in the bud and confiscate any air-poppers or somesuch things. Back then was when the whole “fat free” movement got started when all oil was thought to be bad for you, and the Berrigan brothers were ‘paling around with dictators’ like Ortega in Nicaragua (till the evangelical protestants sent in the Contras and ‘restored’ order). Thing is, ironic really, now we’re told that some oils, like olive oil, are actually good for you! (and Ortega was recently elected president! and Luca Brazzi became Pope Benedict XVI!! God bless him). The oil scare of the 80’s ended when the recently deceased Dr. Atkins came out with a whole new diet philosophy and said you could eat all the fat and meat you wanted and still be healthy! I don’t care what they say a fat-free muffin just don’t taste right. I was glad to hear from my N.D. (Naturopathic Doctor) that oats aren’t really good for me either. When I think of all those fat-free, oat-bran muffins I choked down, well, thank God I finally found a Doctor to set me straight. Of course, then micro-wave popcorn came along and everyone tossed their air-poppers out. Although, some people believe (my N.D.) that microwaves aren’t any good for you either, and others say that they render men impotent. I have studied up on it a bit but it seems the scientists and Doctors haven’t reached consensus yet. The micro-wave manufacturers, however, have done a lot of research and they argue that they are completely safe. Well, I am keeping my micro-wave for now (but I put it up on a tall shelf) and now I pop my corn in olive oil; organic, first cold-pressed and… extra Virgin (which is another way of saying ‘indefectible’ I think). Obliged, Daniel.

By: Chris Donato

Chris Donato — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 01:35:35 +0000

Kim, I’m not sure I see the difference. People create culture. The culture then, having become reified, shapes her people. And it goes on. And on (still not sure which came first, the chicken or the egg?). This isn’t deduced, Stephen; it’s a result of inductive reasoning, and thus works (ideally) from the ground up. We “know” it because we observe it—over and over and over again. With respect to modernity, and Halden’s point about it being informed/shaped by Christian people (I’m just not sold on his use of “orthodoxy”—unless he defines what aspects of orthodoxy specifically led to that which we call “modernity”).

But it certainly does seem that something akin to a critically realist position is the only viable option.

By: roger flyer

roger flyer — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 01:23:15 +0000

Apophatically yours,
Roger