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	<title>Comments on: On Gender-Accurate Language</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/08/11/on-gender-accurate-language/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/08/11/on-gender-accurate-language/</link>
	<description>Sort of a cross between Rambo and Gandhi.</description>
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		<title>By: Alan Rutherford</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/08/11/on-gender-accurate-language/comment-page-1/#comment-9655</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Rutherford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Aug 2009 23:37:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2647#comment-9655</guid>
		<description>The article is weak, but arguments against using &quot;they&quot; are weaker. It&#039;s funny that opponents of &quot;they&quot; get hung up on the number problem; &quot;you&quot; has had to do double-duty for both singular and plural since the 17th century!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The article is weak, but arguments against using &#8220;they&#8221; are weaker. It&#8217;s funny that opponents of &#8220;they&#8221; get hung up on the number problem; &#8220;you&#8221; has had to do double-duty for both singular and plural since the 17th century!</p>
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		<title>By: Halden</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/08/11/on-gender-accurate-language/comment-page-1/#comment-9649</link>
		<dc:creator>Halden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Aug 2009 22:45:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2647#comment-9649</guid>
		<description>Just to enrich things a bit, here are some examples of the kind of usage the article is talking about:

&lt;quote&gt;— Shakespeare: and every one to rest themselves betake&#039;
— Jane Austen: I would have everybody marry if they can do it properly; 
 — W. H. Auden: it is too hideous for anyone in their senses to buy; 
— Shakespeare: &#039;tis meet that some more audience than a mother, since nature makes them partial, should o&#039;erhear the speech;
— W. M. Thackeray:  a person can&#039;t help their birth 
— G. B. Shaw: no man goes to battle to be killed. — But they do get killed;
&lt;/quote&gt; 

- From &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/they&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Merriam Webster&lt;/a&gt;

All this to say, using &quot;they&quot; as a universal singular pronoun is not bad English whatsoever, nor is it grammatically problematic. Strangely then, it seems to me that the only reason for rejecting a grammatically-appropriate gender-accurate pronoun in favor of a male one would be...ideological.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just to enrich things a bit, here are some examples of the kind of usage the article is talking about:</p>
<p><quote>— Shakespeare: and every one to rest themselves betake&#8217;<br />
— Jane Austen: I would have everybody marry if they can do it properly;<br />
 — W. H. Auden: it is too hideous for anyone in their senses to buy;<br />
— Shakespeare: &#8217;tis meet that some more audience than a mother, since nature makes them partial, should o&#8217;erhear the speech;<br />
— W. M. Thackeray:  a person can&#8217;t help their birth<br />
— G. B. Shaw: no man goes to battle to be killed. — But they do get killed;<br />
</quote> </p>
<p>- From <a href="http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/they" rel="nofollow">Merriam Webster</a></p>
<p>All this to say, using &#8220;they&#8221; as a universal singular pronoun is not bad English whatsoever, nor is it grammatically problematic. Strangely then, it seems to me that the only reason for rejecting a grammatically-appropriate gender-accurate pronoun in favor of a male one would be&#8230;ideological.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Rutherford</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/08/11/on-gender-accurate-language/comment-page-1/#comment-9620</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Rutherford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Aug 2009 20:13:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2647#comment-9620</guid>
		<description>Clarification:  inclusive pronouns &lt;i&gt;for people&lt;/i&gt;!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clarification:  inclusive pronouns <i>for people</i>!</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Rutherford</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/08/11/on-gender-accurate-language/comment-page-1/#comment-9613</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Rutherford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Aug 2009 19:35:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2647#comment-9613</guid>
		<description>The article&#039;s central assertion is that Fisher introduced &quot;he&quot; as a universal pronoun. It states that pronouns were inclusive until she wrote New Grammar in 1745. That&#039;s clearly not accurate. I&#039;m not calling for footnotes or alleging that the authors made this up, just suggesting that it would strengthen and enrich the article to quote at least one example from literature (such as Chaucer). 

Byron, Austen, et al wrote after Fisher, so their usage of &quot;they&quot; only illustrates that it never died out, but that&#039;s not central to the article&#039;s premise.

I&#039;ve always advocated inclusive pronouns. It just bugs me when journalists reduce a complicated issue to a simple story.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The article&#8217;s central assertion is that Fisher introduced &#8220;he&#8221; as a universal pronoun. It states that pronouns were inclusive until she wrote New Grammar in 1745. That&#8217;s clearly not accurate. I&#8217;m not calling for footnotes or alleging that the authors made this up, just suggesting that it would strengthen and enrich the article to quote at least one example from literature (such as Chaucer). </p>
<p>Byron, Austen, et al wrote after Fisher, so their usage of &#8220;they&#8221; only illustrates that it never died out, but that&#8217;s not central to the article&#8217;s premise.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve always advocated inclusive pronouns. It just bugs me when journalists reduce a complicated issue to a simple story.</p>
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		<title>By: Theophilus</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/08/11/on-gender-accurate-language/comment-page-1/#comment-9603</link>
		<dc:creator>Theophilus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Aug 2009 18:32:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2647#comment-9603</guid>
		<description>Have to go with Dees on this one. There certainly are the antifeminists who are being ideological rather than logical, but there are also some good reasons to keep the original, singular, masculine usages in our Bibles. Simply using the original masculine singular can create interpretive problems when both genders really should be included, but moving to the plural to avoid the gendered reference can distort the distinction between personal and corporate, including in some places where that actually might be significant. I think that given the sensibilities of modern English speakers, the gender-neutral plural is fine, but I would still like the original masculine singular to be noted in the footnotes. Swapping numerical accuracy for gender accuracy alone isn&#039;t the best solution in some areas.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Have to go with Dees on this one. There certainly are the antifeminists who are being ideological rather than logical, but there are also some good reasons to keep the original, singular, masculine usages in our Bibles. Simply using the original masculine singular can create interpretive problems when both genders really should be included, but moving to the plural to avoid the gendered reference can distort the distinction between personal and corporate, including in some places where that actually might be significant. I think that given the sensibilities of modern English speakers, the gender-neutral plural is fine, but I would still like the original masculine singular to be noted in the footnotes. Swapping numerical accuracy for gender accuracy alone isn&#8217;t the best solution in some areas.</p>
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		<title>By: Dees</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/08/11/on-gender-accurate-language/comment-page-1/#comment-9590</link>
		<dc:creator>Dees</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Aug 2009 13:31:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2647#comment-9590</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;There isn’t really a controversy, just a handful of very irrational and vocal people that think masculinity is the ultimate definition of the human.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Because that&#039;s not a straw man.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;There isn’t really a controversy, just a handful of very irrational and vocal people that think masculinity is the ultimate definition of the human.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Because that&#8217;s not a straw man.</p>
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		<title>By: Halden</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/08/11/on-gender-accurate-language/comment-page-1/#comment-9578</link>
		<dc:creator>Halden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Aug 2009 01:11:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2647#comment-9578</guid>
		<description>I think the real point is not the prior to Fisher all language was inclusive, merely that there were other ways in which literature was produced in relation to this grammatical problem.

And the article also seems to mention &quot;Byron, Austen, Thackeray, Eliot, Dickens, Trollope&quot; as well.

Newspaper articles rarely use footnotes. I suppose its possible that the author made it all up, but I&#039;d have to see evidence to make me view it with immediate suspicion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the real point is not the prior to Fisher all language was inclusive, merely that there were other ways in which literature was produced in relation to this grammatical problem.</p>
<p>And the article also seems to mention &#8220;Byron, Austen, Thackeray, Eliot, Dickens, Trollope&#8221; as well.</p>
<p>Newspaper articles rarely use footnotes. I suppose its possible that the author made it all up, but I&#8217;d have to see evidence to make me view it with immediate suspicion.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Rutherford</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/08/11/on-gender-accurate-language/comment-page-1/#comment-9577</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Rutherford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Aug 2009 23:10:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2647#comment-9577</guid>
		<description>As much as I&#039;d like to believe this article, it only mentions Chaucer and doesn&#039;t bother to cite any historical examples. The obvious one that comes to mind is the Authorized King James Version of the Bible [1611]. It consistently uses &quot;he&quot; for a universal singular pronoun. For example, &quot;for every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened&quot; (Matt 7:8). To say that &quot;they&quot; was used &quot;for centuries&quot; ignores the KJV Bible, which was a pretty important and perhaps influential piece of literature in its day.

The greek pronouns in this verse are singular masculine, but Jesus&#039;s statement here was clearly inclusive of females. I don&#039;t know whether the KJV&#039;s translators were following convention or trying to stay true to the original Greek; my point is, Anne Fisher didn&#039;t singlehandedly introduce this rule to English in 1745.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As much as I&#8217;d like to believe this article, it only mentions Chaucer and doesn&#8217;t bother to cite any historical examples. The obvious one that comes to mind is the Authorized King James Version of the Bible [1611]. It consistently uses &#8220;he&#8221; for a universal singular pronoun. For example, &#8220;for every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened&#8221; (Matt 7:8). To say that &#8220;they&#8221; was used &#8220;for centuries&#8221; ignores the KJV Bible, which was a pretty important and perhaps influential piece of literature in its day.</p>
<p>The greek pronouns in this verse are singular masculine, but Jesus&#8217;s statement here was clearly inclusive of females. I don&#8217;t know whether the KJV&#8217;s translators were following convention or trying to stay true to the original Greek; my point is, Anne Fisher didn&#8217;t singlehandedly introduce this rule to English in 1745.</p>
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		<title>By: Andy Alexis-Baker</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/08/11/on-gender-accurate-language/comment-page-1/#comment-9576</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy Alexis-Baker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Aug 2009 22:03:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2647#comment-9576</guid>
		<description>Latin has neuter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Latin has neuter.</p>
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		<title>By: Parrot</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/08/11/on-gender-accurate-language/comment-page-1/#comment-9575</link>
		<dc:creator>Parrot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Aug 2009 22:01:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2647#comment-9575</guid>
		<description>Wow.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow.</p>
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		<title>By: Deve</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/08/11/on-gender-accurate-language/comment-page-1/#comment-9565</link>
		<dc:creator>Deve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Aug 2009 20:22:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2647#comment-9565</guid>
		<description>Wow.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow.</p>
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		<title>By: Theophilus</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/08/11/on-gender-accurate-language/comment-page-1/#comment-9560</link>
		<dc:creator>Theophilus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Aug 2009 17:18:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2647#comment-9560</guid>
		<description>I found it interesting that Fisher should expand the masculine to involve both genders if she&#039;s so interested in legitimizing English over and against Latin. The French language, rooted in Latin, has no concept of gender-neutrality in language. All nouns must be masculine or feminine, and if both are present, the masculine plural pronoun is always used. My understanding is that the other Romance languages are the same. Sticking with &quot;they&quot; as a singular gender-neutral pronoun would seem to be a strike against Latin, or at least its more closely related derivatives.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I found it interesting that Fisher should expand the masculine to involve both genders if she&#8217;s so interested in legitimizing English over and against Latin. The French language, rooted in Latin, has no concept of gender-neutrality in language. All nouns must be masculine or feminine, and if both are present, the masculine plural pronoun is always used. My understanding is that the other Romance languages are the same. Sticking with &#8220;they&#8221; as a singular gender-neutral pronoun would seem to be a strike against Latin, or at least its more closely related derivatives.</p>
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		<title>By: Skip</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/08/11/on-gender-accurate-language/comment-page-1/#comment-9559</link>
		<dc:creator>Skip</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Aug 2009 17:05:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2647#comment-9559</guid>
		<description>Wow.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow.</p>
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