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	<title>Comments on: More on the Voluntariness of the Church</title>
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	<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/09/12/more-on-the-voluntariness-of-the-church/</link>
	<description>The regnant gadfly of the theological blogosphere.</description>
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		<title>By: Daniel Imburgia</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/09/12/more-on-the-voluntariness-of-the-church/comment-page-1/#comment-10733</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Imburgia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Sep 2009 04:25:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2864#comment-10733</guid>
		<description>yes and thanks Dave.  I am only really familiar with RC traditions, (many evangelicals often don&#039;t seem to have a lot of this stuff worked out definitively)  But when it came to Reformed, and particularly Anabaptists (Halden?) I didn&#039;t know if they would accept others who had only been baptized as infants, or if one would have to be re-baptized to join their community or whether it was up to the individual.  A great discussion. obliged.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>yes and thanks Dave.  I am only really familiar with RC traditions, (many evangelicals often don&#8217;t seem to have a lot of this stuff worked out definitively)  But when it came to Reformed, and particularly Anabaptists (Halden?) I didn&#8217;t know if they would accept others who had only been baptized as infants, or if one would have to be re-baptized to join their community or whether it was up to the individual.  A great discussion. obliged.</p>
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		<title>By: JohnTheBastard</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/09/12/more-on-the-voluntariness-of-the-church/comment-page-1/#comment-10724</link>
		<dc:creator>JohnTheBastard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Sep 2009 22:58:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2864#comment-10724</guid>
		<description>I think we are operating on pretty different assumptions about what constitutes life in Christ. I&#039;m not really sure how to respond. I basically disagree with everything you just said.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think we are operating on pretty different assumptions about what constitutes life in Christ. I&#8217;m not really sure how to respond. I basically disagree with everything you just said.</p>
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		<title>By: Theophilus</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/09/12/more-on-the-voluntariness-of-the-church/comment-page-1/#comment-10723</link>
		<dc:creator>Theophilus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Sep 2009 22:25:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2864#comment-10723</guid>
		<description>Sorry, the language of &quot;freeloaders&quot; and &quot;stowaways&quot; carries more baggage than was warranted. It was unfair of me to use language associated with ne&#039;er-do-wells to describe those who are purportedly supported entirely by others, incapable of doing so on their own. I went on a nautical tangent when I picked those terms, and they were not adequately thought through.

I still think the business of God judging individuals, and expelling from his gathering those who have not had met in themselves the requirements for fellowship with God, throws a wet blanket over the notion that the faith of others can make effective the baptism of infants. It&#039;s the same reason I don&#039;t like it when Mormons &quot;baptize&quot; the dead, or when Catholics use their indulgences to save others from Purgatory.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, the language of &#8220;freeloaders&#8221; and &#8220;stowaways&#8221; carries more baggage than was warranted. It was unfair of me to use language associated with ne&#8217;er-do-wells to describe those who are purportedly supported entirely by others, incapable of doing so on their own. I went on a nautical tangent when I picked those terms, and they were not adequately thought through.</p>
<p>I still think the business of God judging individuals, and expelling from his gathering those who have not had met in themselves the requirements for fellowship with God, throws a wet blanket over the notion that the faith of others can make effective the baptism of infants. It&#8217;s the same reason I don&#8217;t like it when Mormons &#8220;baptize&#8221; the dead, or when Catholics use their indulgences to save others from Purgatory.</p>
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		<title>By: JohnTheBastard</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/09/12/more-on-the-voluntariness-of-the-church/comment-page-1/#comment-10721</link>
		<dc:creator>JohnTheBastard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Sep 2009 21:52:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2864#comment-10721</guid>
		<description>I haven&#039;t read the source texts Dave is referencing here, so I am not sure how Augustine or Aquinas laid out their arguments, but the phrase &quot;making up for what is lacking&quot; suggests that the author was borrowing from Paul:

&quot;Night and day we pray most earnestly that we may see you again and supply what is lacking in your faith.&quot;
1 Thessalonians 3:10

At first glance, this appears to suggest that, perhaps, the faith of one person can be employed in some form of substitutionary role for the lack therof in another.  However, this isn&#039;t the only instance of Paul using this language, and such an interpretation becomes problematic:

&quot;Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ&#039;s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.&quot; 
-Colossians 1:24

Is Paul suggesting here that somehow Christ&#039;s death on the cross was somehow an insufficient atonement, and that he has some ability to make up for it? This really doesn&#039;t make much sense, given that several lines earlier, he said:

&quot;For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.&quot;
-1 Colossians 1:19-20

I&#039;ll leave it as an exercise for the reader ;-) to piece together the argument, but what I think Paul is &#039;making up for&#039; here on Jesus&#039; behalf is a physical, material presence.  Now, if you go back and look at the Thessalonians verse, you&#039;ll see that the same interpretation makes for a pleasingly parsimonious explanation of that usage as well.

The point being, a congregation can happily provide a physical manifestation for God&#039;s love and presence towards an infant, but I see no reason to believe that the faith of friends and family provisions an occasion to baptize one with no concept of sin or redemption.

The modern church, at least a part of it, is struggling to extricate itself from a culture that has deified individual choice and freedom, and rightly so.  Our individualist cultural assumptions are not a particularly good framework for interpreting scripture written by and for members of a communalist society.  However, it seems that at times we are a bit over-eager to attribute the processes worked in individual biblical figures to communal decision making.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I haven&#8217;t read the source texts Dave is referencing here, so I am not sure how Augustine or Aquinas laid out their arguments, but the phrase &#8220;making up for what is lacking&#8221; suggests that the author was borrowing from Paul:</p>
<p>&#8220;Night and day we pray most earnestly that we may see you again and supply what is lacking in your faith.&#8221;<br />
1 Thessalonians 3:10</p>
<p>At first glance, this appears to suggest that, perhaps, the faith of one person can be employed in some form of substitutionary role for the lack therof in another.  However, this isn&#8217;t the only instance of Paul using this language, and such an interpretation becomes problematic:</p>
<p>&#8220;Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ&#8217;s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.&#8221;<br />
-Colossians 1:24</p>
<p>Is Paul suggesting here that somehow Christ&#8217;s death on the cross was somehow an insufficient atonement, and that he has some ability to make up for it? This really doesn&#8217;t make much sense, given that several lines earlier, he said:</p>
<p>&#8220;For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.&#8221;<br />
-1 Colossians 1:19-20</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll leave it as an exercise for the reader ;-) to piece together the argument, but what I think Paul is &#8216;making up for&#8217; here on Jesus&#8217; behalf is a physical, material presence.  Now, if you go back and look at the Thessalonians verse, you&#8217;ll see that the same interpretation makes for a pleasingly parsimonious explanation of that usage as well.</p>
<p>The point being, a congregation can happily provide a physical manifestation for God&#8217;s love and presence towards an infant, but I see no reason to believe that the faith of friends and family provisions an occasion to baptize one with no concept of sin or redemption.</p>
<p>The modern church, at least a part of it, is struggling to extricate itself from a culture that has deified individual choice and freedom, and rightly so.  Our individualist cultural assumptions are not a particularly good framework for interpreting scripture written by and for members of a communalist society.  However, it seems that at times we are a bit over-eager to attribute the processes worked in individual biblical figures to communal decision making.</p>
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		<title>By: james</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/09/12/more-on-the-voluntariness-of-the-church/comment-page-1/#comment-10719</link>
		<dc:creator>james</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Sep 2009 21:24:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2864#comment-10719</guid>
		<description>I guess I meant that Jesus (if he commanded it at all) didn&#039;t command people to baptize in order to &quot;recognize the radical miracle of the Holy Spirit that had occurred in a person&#039;s life&quot;. He commanded them to baptize people to mark them as disciples, or basically inclusion in the group of people who CLAIM to be disciples.  It is therefore &quot;just part of normal human social life&quot; like any group&#039;s initiatory rite.  

Any miracle going on in the baptismal act would be their affiliation with the body of Christ (which can be undone) quite apart from recognizing a prior miracle pre-baptism (which often appears dubious and thus un&quot;recognized&quot; in retrospect).

The attempt to keep baptism super-natural or un-normal is used to exclude the natural family and works against what we normally see occurring.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess I meant that Jesus (if he commanded it at all) didn&#8217;t command people to baptize in order to &#8220;recognize the radical miracle of the Holy Spirit that had occurred in a person&#8217;s life&#8221;. He commanded them to baptize people to mark them as disciples, or basically inclusion in the group of people who CLAIM to be disciples.  It is therefore &#8220;just part of normal human social life&#8221; like any group&#8217;s initiatory rite.  </p>
<p>Any miracle going on in the baptismal act would be their affiliation with the body of Christ (which can be undone) quite apart from recognizing a prior miracle pre-baptism (which often appears dubious and thus un&#8221;recognized&#8221; in retrospect).</p>
<p>The attempt to keep baptism super-natural or un-normal is used to exclude the natural family and works against what we normally see occurring.</p>
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		<title>By: JohnTheBastard</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/09/12/more-on-the-voluntariness-of-the-church/comment-page-1/#comment-10718</link>
		<dc:creator>JohnTheBastard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Sep 2009 20:50:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2864#comment-10718</guid>
		<description>I think if your definition of baptism is primarily a rite of inclusion/affiliation, you are talking about a different sort of baptism than Jesus commanded.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think if your definition of baptism is primarily a rite of inclusion/affiliation, you are talking about a different sort of baptism than Jesus commanded.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Belcher</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/09/12/more-on-the-voluntariness-of-the-church/comment-page-1/#comment-10680</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Belcher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Sep 2009 13:33:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2864#comment-10680</guid>
		<description>Dainel, baptism has not been definitively linked with Jewish ritual baptisms -- at most there have been folks like Nyssa or Origen or Clement who have described &quot;types&quot; of baptism in the OT, such as Naaman dunking himself seven times in the Jordan to get clean of leprosy. On the whole, however, Christian baptism is not essentially connected with the Jewish traditions of ritual bathing, etc (there has not been definitive evidence to suggest so, at least). Its relation to circumcision is a more difficult question I will not entertain here -- though, it is not the same thing...it is a sign of the &quot;new&quot; covenant, yes, but, for instance, the Council of Carthage in 401 decided that a newborn did not need to wait eight days (as with circumcision) to be baptized, but could be baptized straightaway. It is a fairly ancient practice that if a priest or bishop (someone ordained) is not available to baptize, a lay member or deacon may baptize (and in the case of women, in one text, deaconesses would always do the baptizing -- cause they got naked to get baptized in those days). Yes, we all accept one another&#039;s baptisms: Protestants can be accepted into the RC church without having to be rebaptized (so long as they were baptized in water in the name of teh Father, Son, and Holy Spirit)...just laying on of (apostolic) hands is necessary; Anglicans will admit children (even infants!) to Eucharist by virtue of their baptism....so, in a very real sense, the fact that churches do not join together at the table together (the &quot;sacrament of unity&quot;) is truly an offense against our one baptism, especially given that all churches recognize one another&#039;s baptisms. Hope this helps.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dainel, baptism has not been definitively linked with Jewish ritual baptisms &#8212; at most there have been folks like Nyssa or Origen or Clement who have described &#8220;types&#8221; of baptism in the OT, such as Naaman dunking himself seven times in the Jordan to get clean of leprosy. On the whole, however, Christian baptism is not essentially connected with the Jewish traditions of ritual bathing, etc (there has not been definitive evidence to suggest so, at least). Its relation to circumcision is a more difficult question I will not entertain here &#8212; though, it is not the same thing&#8230;it is a sign of the &#8220;new&#8221; covenant, yes, but, for instance, the Council of Carthage in 401 decided that a newborn did not need to wait eight days (as with circumcision) to be baptized, but could be baptized straightaway. It is a fairly ancient practice that if a priest or bishop (someone ordained) is not available to baptize, a lay member or deacon may baptize (and in the case of women, in one text, deaconesses would always do the baptizing &#8212; cause they got naked to get baptized in those days). Yes, we all accept one another&#8217;s baptisms: Protestants can be accepted into the RC church without having to be rebaptized (so long as they were baptized in water in the name of teh Father, Son, and Holy Spirit)&#8230;just laying on of (apostolic) hands is necessary; Anglicans will admit children (even infants!) to Eucharist by virtue of their baptism&#8230;.so, in a very real sense, the fact that churches do not join together at the table together (the &#8220;sacrament of unity&#8221;) is truly an offense against our one baptism, especially given that all churches recognize one another&#8217;s baptisms. Hope this helps.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Belcher</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/09/12/more-on-the-voluntariness-of-the-church/comment-page-1/#comment-10679</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Belcher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Sep 2009 13:24:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2864#comment-10679</guid>
		<description>I am suggesting that one&#039;s &quot;faith&quot; is not one&#039;s own -- that faith in fact &lt;i&gt;as a human act&lt;/i&gt; is only ever that gifted hearty trust (by the Spirit) in &lt;i&gt;God&#039;s&lt;/i&gt; act of faithfulness in Jesus Christ (i.e., in God&#039;s &lt;i&gt;apocalyptic&lt;/i&gt; act in Jesus Christ). Insofar as God&#039;s faithfulness is about the business of setting things right, and about right relationship, &quot;faith&quot; is what moves me to love my neighbor, to be joined to her in outgoing love...so, &quot;my&quot; faith is not &quot;subsumed by proxy in the communion of the church,&quot; but it is &lt;i&gt;joined to it&lt;/i&gt;, and it is taken up with it in one voice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am suggesting that one&#8217;s &#8220;faith&#8221; is not one&#8217;s own &#8212; that faith in fact <i>as a human act</i> is only ever that gifted hearty trust (by the Spirit) in <i>God&#8217;s</i> act of faithfulness in Jesus Christ (i.e., in God&#8217;s <i>apocalyptic</i> act in Jesus Christ). Insofar as God&#8217;s faithfulness is about the business of setting things right, and about right relationship, &#8220;faith&#8221; is what moves me to love my neighbor, to be joined to her in outgoing love&#8230;so, &#8220;my&#8221; faith is not &#8220;subsumed by proxy in the communion of the church,&#8221; but it is <i>joined to it</i>, and it is taken up with it in one voice.</p>
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		<title>By: Halden</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/09/12/more-on-the-voluntariness-of-the-church/comment-page-1/#comment-10667</link>
		<dc:creator>Halden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Sep 2009 06:09:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2864#comment-10667</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the further clarifications, Dave. I do see the cogency and power of this argument. However I don&#039;t know that my concerns are alleviated. I am left wondering, if God makes up what is lacking on the part of an infant, why can we not assume that God does so on other sorts of potential recipients as well? Like the children of nonbelievers, or even of adult non-believers themselves? It seems the same sort of logic would at least make baptism of, well, anyone theologically licit, at least if taken to its logical conclusion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the further clarifications, Dave. I do see the cogency and power of this argument. However I don&#8217;t know that my concerns are alleviated. I am left wondering, if God makes up what is lacking on the part of an infant, why can we not assume that God does so on other sorts of potential recipients as well? Like the children of nonbelievers, or even of adult non-believers themselves? It seems the same sort of logic would at least make baptism of, well, anyone theologically licit, at least if taken to its logical conclusion.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Imburgia</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/09/12/more-on-the-voluntariness-of-the-church/comment-page-1/#comment-10661</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Imburgia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Sep 2009 04:26:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2864#comment-10661</guid>
		<description>Great discussion, not since that profound scene in Godfather 2 have I reflected on baptism this much.  Thanks to youall.  I don&#039;t know much about the history of Christian baptism; how does it relate, if at all to Jewish mikvaot or ritual baptisms?  Are there any affinities with circumcision?  Does it matter who does the baptizing?  Seems like many here come from different traditions, do you all accept each others baptisms?  If so/not, why so/not?  Is baptism crucial or determinative for inclusion in the/a church or the body of Christ?  thanks so much for your consideration, obliged, Daniel.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great discussion, not since that profound scene in Godfather 2 have I reflected on baptism this much.  Thanks to youall.  I don&#8217;t know much about the history of Christian baptism; how does it relate, if at all to Jewish mikvaot or ritual baptisms?  Are there any affinities with circumcision?  Does it matter who does the baptizing?  Seems like many here come from different traditions, do you all accept each others baptisms?  If so/not, why so/not?  Is baptism crucial or determinative for inclusion in the/a church or the body of Christ?  thanks so much for your consideration, obliged, Daniel.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Belcher</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/09/12/more-on-the-voluntariness-of-the-church/comment-page-1/#comment-10657</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Belcher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Sep 2009 03:53:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2864#comment-10657</guid>
		<description>And just to be clear -- I find &quot;family&quot; or &quot;private&quot; baptisms just as problematic as I&#039;m sure you do. I have been trying for some time now to think through baptism theologically, and theologically I find nothing that indicates little ones are not to be brought to the font.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And just to be clear &#8212; I find &#8220;family&#8221; or &#8220;private&#8221; baptisms just as problematic as I&#8217;m sure you do. I have been trying for some time now to think through baptism theologically, and theologically I find nothing that indicates little ones are not to be brought to the font.</p>
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		<title>By: Bobby Grow</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/09/12/more-on-the-voluntariness-of-the-church/comment-page-1/#comment-10656</link>
		<dc:creator>Bobby Grow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Sep 2009 03:52:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2864#comment-10656</guid>
		<description>Dave, 

I just recently read about Luther&#039;s view in Oberman&#039;s book (Between God and the Devil); I think you nail it.

But, when you say:

&lt;blockquote&gt; I think one could still talk about a “credo baptism” (though I would want to discuss what that might mean) that still allows for infants, mentally disabled, and others to be baptized without lessening the “rigor” of the sacrament.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Are you suggesting a Luther[an] perspective, wherein &quot;credo&quot; is framed by the &quot;church&#039;s faith;&quot; and not the &quot;individual&#039;s&quot; profession and testimony in the LORD? So that &lt;em&gt;credo&lt;/em&gt; really is subsumed by &lt;em&gt;proxy&lt;/em&gt; in the communion of the church.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave, </p>
<p>I just recently read about Luther&#8217;s view in Oberman&#8217;s book (Between God and the Devil); I think you nail it.</p>
<p>But, when you say:</p>
<blockquote><p> I think one could still talk about a “credo baptism” (though I would want to discuss what that might mean) that still allows for infants, mentally disabled, and others to be baptized without lessening the “rigor” of the sacrament.</p></blockquote>
<p>Are you suggesting a Luther[an] perspective, wherein &#8220;credo&#8221; is framed by the &#8220;church&#8217;s faith;&#8221; and not the &#8220;individual&#8217;s&#8221; profession and testimony in the LORD? So that <em>credo</em> really is subsumed by <em>proxy</em> in the communion of the church.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Belcher</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/09/12/more-on-the-voluntariness-of-the-church/comment-page-1/#comment-10655</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Belcher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Sep 2009 03:38:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2864#comment-10655</guid>
		<description>Theophilus, to describe infants (or mentally disabled folks and others -- see my comment below) as &quot;freeloaders&quot; is in my mind truly absurd.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Theophilus, to describe infants (or mentally disabled folks and others &#8212; see my comment below) as &#8220;freeloaders&#8221; is in my mind truly absurd.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Belcher</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/09/12/more-on-the-voluntariness-of-the-church/comment-page-1/#comment-10653</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Belcher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Sep 2009 03:37:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2864#comment-10653</guid>
		<description>Halden, I think it might be better if I had said that in the profession of faith (the recitation of the creed), the Holy Spirit joins this body together in unity, and that simultaneously, although the child cannot &quot;participate&quot; in this profession, God by the power of the Holy Spirit joins the child to this body in a miraculous and wholly merciful way (so it might be more helpful if I were to say that &lt;i&gt;God through the community&lt;/i&gt; makes up for what is lacking in the faith of the infant). So, the godparent(s)/sponsor(s) -- really though, the whole body -- brings this child before God and asks that God&#039;s promise would fall also on this little one, for whom though faith does not yet have purchase, sin does, and that God&#039;s grace in Jesus Christ which is victorious over sin might prevail even for this one as well (it seems to me that a more difficult question at hand might be that of &quot;original sin&quot; or the extent of sin in the infant, and baptism&#039;s relation to sin -- e.g., Is baptism &lt;i&gt;only&lt;/i&gt; about the remission of sins? If not, what else does this act say with respect to the infant?). 

Another aspect of this that I forgot to include in my message above is with respect to how we talk about a &quot;lack of faith.&quot; What is wonderful about Luther is how he describes the &quot;faith of a child [or &quot;little one&quot;]&quot;...one who technically lacks the &quot;maturity&quot; (we might say) for an &quot;intellectual apprehension of the known good.&quot; Faith, says Luther, involves primarily (not secondarily) a firm trust, &lt;i&gt;fiducia&lt;/i&gt;, and children, he goes on to say, display this trust so very innocently, whereas adults can duplicitously smuggle in doubt and self-perpetuation into their &quot;trust.&quot; I think this is very important and not to be overlooked. Faith, as &lt;i&gt;God&#039;s gift&lt;/i&gt;, is wholly gratuitous, and so it is not up to us to decide where God&#039;s gracious trust will be manifest (and this is truly the only way to describe faith as a gift that is also truly the act of the person -- otherwise, if faith is simply one &quot;can&quot; or &quot;cannot&quot; do, in a neutral fashion, competition is introduced between God and the world). 

And along those lines...this sort of &quot;lack of faith&quot; often described with respect to children is not simply to be found in infants (who lack the formative capacities for either intellectual apprehension or the willing of the good) or in those who willfully persist in their unbelief; we have to ask serious questions here about those (adults and infants!) who have serious mental disabilities (not only those who suffer from down&#039;s, but also from serious diseases such as schizophrenia or even alzheimer&#039;s), and who are nevertheless brought by those who love them to the baptismal font. Are these any less &quot;the faithful&quot; [&lt;i&gt;fidelibus&lt;/i&gt;]? On what grounds? 

Aquinas seems to be saying, well, infants (and let&#039;s add these other others) &quot;lack faith&quot; in the sense that they cannot make a profession of faith -- that is, they cannot recite the creed (which of course is not a &lt;i&gt;mere&lt;/i&gt; recitation but is a way of throwing ourselves on God and God&#039;s deliverance in Jesus Christ by the power of the Spirit). All of this is to say, I think one could still talk about a &quot;credo baptism&quot; (though I would want to discuss what that might mean) that still allows for infants, mentally disabled, and others to be baptized without lessening the &quot;rigor&quot; of the sacrament.

Well, I really need to shut up. Sorry for talking so much. Thanks for discussion on these difficult but fruitful questions.

Peace.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Halden, I think it might be better if I had said that in the profession of faith (the recitation of the creed), the Holy Spirit joins this body together in unity, and that simultaneously, although the child cannot &#8220;participate&#8221; in this profession, God by the power of the Holy Spirit joins the child to this body in a miraculous and wholly merciful way (so it might be more helpful if I were to say that <i>God through the community</i> makes up for what is lacking in the faith of the infant). So, the godparent(s)/sponsor(s) &#8212; really though, the whole body &#8212; brings this child before God and asks that God&#8217;s promise would fall also on this little one, for whom though faith does not yet have purchase, sin does, and that God&#8217;s grace in Jesus Christ which is victorious over sin might prevail even for this one as well (it seems to me that a more difficult question at hand might be that of &#8220;original sin&#8221; or the extent of sin in the infant, and baptism&#8217;s relation to sin &#8212; e.g., Is baptism <i>only</i> about the remission of sins? If not, what else does this act say with respect to the infant?). </p>
<p>Another aspect of this that I forgot to include in my message above is with respect to how we talk about a &#8220;lack of faith.&#8221; What is wonderful about Luther is how he describes the &#8220;faith of a child [or "little one"]&#8220;&#8230;one who technically lacks the &#8220;maturity&#8221; (we might say) for an &#8220;intellectual apprehension of the known good.&#8221; Faith, says Luther, involves primarily (not secondarily) a firm trust, <i>fiducia</i>, and children, he goes on to say, display this trust so very innocently, whereas adults can duplicitously smuggle in doubt and self-perpetuation into their &#8220;trust.&#8221; I think this is very important and not to be overlooked. Faith, as <i>God&#8217;s gift</i>, is wholly gratuitous, and so it is not up to us to decide where God&#8217;s gracious trust will be manifest (and this is truly the only way to describe faith as a gift that is also truly the act of the person &#8212; otherwise, if faith is simply one &#8220;can&#8221; or &#8220;cannot&#8221; do, in a neutral fashion, competition is introduced between God and the world). </p>
<p>And along those lines&#8230;this sort of &#8220;lack of faith&#8221; often described with respect to children is not simply to be found in infants (who lack the formative capacities for either intellectual apprehension or the willing of the good) or in those who willfully persist in their unbelief; we have to ask serious questions here about those (adults and infants!) who have serious mental disabilities (not only those who suffer from down&#8217;s, but also from serious diseases such as schizophrenia or even alzheimer&#8217;s), and who are nevertheless brought by those who love them to the baptismal font. Are these any less &#8220;the faithful&#8221; [<i>fidelibus</i>]? On what grounds? </p>
<p>Aquinas seems to be saying, well, infants (and let&#8217;s add these other others) &#8220;lack faith&#8221; in the sense that they cannot make a profession of faith &#8212; that is, they cannot recite the creed (which of course is not a <i>mere</i> recitation but is a way of throwing ourselves on God and God&#8217;s deliverance in Jesus Christ by the power of the Spirit). All of this is to say, I think one could still talk about a &#8220;credo baptism&#8221; (though I would want to discuss what that might mean) that still allows for infants, mentally disabled, and others to be baptized without lessening the &#8220;rigor&#8221; of the sacrament.</p>
<p>Well, I really need to shut up. Sorry for talking so much. Thanks for discussion on these difficult but fruitful questions.</p>
<p>Peace.</p>
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		<title>By: Theophilus</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/09/12/more-on-the-voluntariness-of-the-church/comment-page-1/#comment-10652</link>
		<dc:creator>Theophilus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Sep 2009 03:15:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2864#comment-10652</guid>
		<description>For me, it is precisely the notion of the church being able to &quot;make up for what is lacking&quot; that is problematic with infant baptism. The prophecies of Jeremiah (31:27-30) and Ezekiel (18) of God&#039;s judgment of individuals, rather than families, don&#039;t mesh with the notion that the faith of the family of God can safely carry stowaways through God&#039;s judgment. In fact, Jesus&#039; parable of the wedding feast in Matthew 22, with the incident of the man without wedding clothes, suggests that God&#039;s other guests are not, in themselves, capable of sustaining the inclusion of freeloaders in the presence of God.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For me, it is precisely the notion of the church being able to &#8220;make up for what is lacking&#8221; that is problematic with infant baptism. The prophecies of Jeremiah (31:27-30) and Ezekiel (18) of God&#8217;s judgment of individuals, rather than families, don&#8217;t mesh with the notion that the faith of the family of God can safely carry stowaways through God&#8217;s judgment. In fact, Jesus&#8217; parable of the wedding feast in Matthew 22, with the incident of the man without wedding clothes, suggests that God&#8217;s other guests are not, in themselves, capable of sustaining the inclusion of freeloaders in the presence of God.</p>
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