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	<title>Comments on: On Not Seeking Glory</title>
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	<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/09/22/on-not-seeking-glory/</link>
	<description>Where youthful Barthianism never dies</description>
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		<title>By: Halden</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/09/22/on-not-seeking-glory/comment-page-1/#comment-11070</link>
		<dc:creator>Halden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 05:10:43 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Hmm, I don&#039;t think my account of the otherness of the Father and Son states anything beyond what we see in the Gospel of John itself. Obviously for Christ there is a clear distinction between what it would be for him to glorify himself versus having the Father glorify him. There&#039;s clearly some sort of real otherness between them or the dialogical nature of Jesus&#039;s relationship with the Father as portrayed in the gospels just wouldn&#039;t make sense. I don&#039;t see how I&#039;m pressing for anything beyond this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm, I don&#8217;t think my account of the otherness of the Father and Son states anything beyond what we see in the Gospel of John itself. Obviously for Christ there is a clear distinction between what it would be for him to glorify himself versus having the Father glorify him. There&#8217;s clearly some sort of real otherness between them or the dialogical nature of Jesus&#8217;s relationship with the Father as portrayed in the gospels just wouldn&#8217;t make sense. I don&#8217;t see how I&#8217;m pressing for anything beyond this.</p>
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		<title>By: Brandon Jones</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/09/22/on-not-seeking-glory/comment-page-1/#comment-11066</link>
		<dc:creator>Brandon Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 03:09:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2936#comment-11066</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t follow your account of John 7:18. I&#039;m fine with saying the Father and Son love and glorify one another. I don&#039;t think you can get from there to saying self-glorification in any form is demonic without inserting a robust social Trinitarian theology where the Father glorifies the Son as &quot;other&quot; (in a quite strong sense, much stronger than the ancient accounts of hypostasis) and vice versa. This is where I think it is helpful to look at this issue under the person of Christ rather than the Trinity. You see the trouble in the &quot;rather than,&quot; and I see the trouble in eliminating it. I would guess the truth is somewhere in between.

I believe Chris visits here too. He pastors in Bend, Oregon. &#039;Tis a small world after all. Well, one other reason I don&#039;t comment much is because it&#039;s hard to keep up with it. You may have the last word if you wish.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t follow your account of John 7:18. I&#8217;m fine with saying the Father and Son love and glorify one another. I don&#8217;t think you can get from there to saying self-glorification in any form is demonic without inserting a robust social Trinitarian theology where the Father glorifies the Son as &#8220;other&#8221; (in a quite strong sense, much stronger than the ancient accounts of hypostasis) and vice versa. This is where I think it is helpful to look at this issue under the person of Christ rather than the Trinity. You see the trouble in the &#8220;rather than,&#8221; and I see the trouble in eliminating it. I would guess the truth is somewhere in between.</p>
<p>I believe Chris visits here too. He pastors in Bend, Oregon. &#8216;Tis a small world after all. Well, one other reason I don&#8217;t comment much is because it&#8217;s hard to keep up with it. You may have the last word if you wish.</p>
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		<title>By: Halden</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/09/22/on-not-seeking-glory/comment-page-1/#comment-11059</link>
		<dc:creator>Halden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Sep 2009 23:01:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2936#comment-11059</guid>
		<description>Also, when I looked at your blog, for a second I thought you were in the Portland area because the other fellow on there mentioned the Spurgeon fellowship. I (among other things) run the bookstore at Western Seminary. Small world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, when I looked at your blog, for a second I thought you were in the Portland area because the other fellow on there mentioned the Spurgeon fellowship. I (among other things) run the bookstore at Western Seminary. Small world.</p>
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		<title>By: Halden</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/09/22/on-not-seeking-glory/comment-page-1/#comment-11058</link>
		<dc:creator>Halden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Sep 2009 22:46:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2936#comment-11058</guid>
		<description>How so? Because I say that Father and Son love and glorify one another? That&#039;s the only thing I can think of...but that&#039;s something we all must say if we believe that Jesus&#039;s human life reveals the Triune God.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How so? Because I say that Father and Son love and glorify one another? That&#8217;s the only thing I can think of&#8230;but that&#8217;s something we all must say if we believe that Jesus&#8217;s human life reveals the Triune God.</p>
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		<title>By: Brandon Jones</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/09/22/on-not-seeking-glory/comment-page-1/#comment-11057</link>
		<dc:creator>Brandon Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Sep 2009 22:40:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2936#comment-11057</guid>
		<description>Somehow as I was typing my last comment I thought this would precisely be your response. I&#039;m not sure if I agree with it, but that&#039;s okay with me. I would call you a social Trinitarian if you really mean what you said in this post though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Somehow as I was typing my last comment I thought this would precisely be your response. I&#8217;m not sure if I agree with it, but that&#8217;s okay with me. I would call you a social Trinitarian if you really mean what you said in this post though.</p>
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		<title>By: Halden</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/09/22/on-not-seeking-glory/comment-page-1/#comment-11056</link>
		<dc:creator>Halden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Sep 2009 22:36:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2936#comment-11056</guid>
		<description>Well, I wouldn&#039;t call myself a social Trinitarian in any strict sense. Here&#039;s some &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2007/07/10/radical-trinitarianism-%C2%A741-who%E2%80%99s-afraid-of-the-social-trinity/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;more&lt;/a&gt; on that if you&#039;re interested.

However, I still fail to see how we could interpret anything in terms of &quot;Christology rather than Trinitarian theology.&quot; I don&#039;t see how we can insert that troubling &quot;rather than&quot; without getting into major trouble.

But, whatever the case, I don&#039;t think there&#039;s any way to avoid saying that Jesus&#039;s statements about the relationship of glorification between him and the Father reveal something of the nature of the Trinity. The relationship of Jesus to the Father cannot be separated (or even distinguished as far as I&#039;m concerned) from the relationship of the eternal Son and Father. Thus every statement about Christ always bears directly on Trinitarianism, just as every statement about the Trinity directly bears on Christology.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I wouldn&#8217;t call myself a social Trinitarian in any strict sense. Here&#8217;s some <a href="http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2007/07/10/radical-trinitarianism-%C2%A741-who%E2%80%99s-afraid-of-the-social-trinity/" rel="nofollow">more</a> on that if you&#8217;re interested.</p>
<p>However, I still fail to see how we could interpret anything in terms of &#8220;Christology rather than Trinitarian theology.&#8221; I don&#8217;t see how we can insert that troubling &#8220;rather than&#8221; without getting into major trouble.</p>
<p>But, whatever the case, I don&#8217;t think there&#8217;s any way to avoid saying that Jesus&#8217;s statements about the relationship of glorification between him and the Father reveal something of the nature of the Trinity. The relationship of Jesus to the Father cannot be separated (or even distinguished as far as I&#8217;m concerned) from the relationship of the eternal Son and Father. Thus every statement about Christ always bears directly on Trinitarianism, just as every statement about the Trinity directly bears on Christology.</p>
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		<title>By: Brandon Jones</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/09/22/on-not-seeking-glory/comment-page-1/#comment-11055</link>
		<dc:creator>Brandon Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Sep 2009 22:24:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2936#comment-11055</guid>
		<description>Hi Halden, sorry if my claim was confusing. I am not making the very broad, sweeping points you mention in your comments here (I believe in eternal generation and the Father as the fount and source of divinity as biblical concepts). I am making the lesser point that I don&#039;t think your specific inference of this text is valid. It looks like it presumes a robust social Trinitarian theology when I&#039;m not sure that such a theology rightly comes from the Gospels (including this text) in the first place. I mentioned the Holmes piece because I think he rightly raises some issues with such a Trinitarian theology and how theologians today often do much more with it than the fathers ever did. They addressed such issues as how to interpret Jesus&#039; statements about glory in their Christology rather than Trinitarian theology, and I don&#039;t think they denied revelation in Christ at a fundamental level in doing so either. Of course I could be wrong, making my point rather inane. This is one reason I rarely comment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Halden, sorry if my claim was confusing. I am not making the very broad, sweeping points you mention in your comments here (I believe in eternal generation and the Father as the fount and source of divinity as biblical concepts). I am making the lesser point that I don&#8217;t think your specific inference of this text is valid. It looks like it presumes a robust social Trinitarian theology when I&#8217;m not sure that such a theology rightly comes from the Gospels (including this text) in the first place. I mentioned the Holmes piece because I think he rightly raises some issues with such a Trinitarian theology and how theologians today often do much more with it than the fathers ever did. They addressed such issues as how to interpret Jesus&#8217; statements about glory in their Christology rather than Trinitarian theology, and I don&#8217;t think they denied revelation in Christ at a fundamental level in doing so either. Of course I could be wrong, making my point rather inane. This is one reason I rarely comment.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/09/22/on-not-seeking-glory/comment-page-1/#comment-11044</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Sep 2009 19:57:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2936#comment-11044</guid>
		<description>Ahh. Makes sense. I was looking at it from the wrong end. Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ahh. Makes sense. I was looking at it from the wrong end. Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: Halden</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/09/22/on-not-seeking-glory/comment-page-1/#comment-11040</link>
		<dc:creator>Halden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Sep 2009 19:21:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2936#comment-11040</guid>
		<description>Further to this point, Brandon, I think I&#039;m actually making a point very similar to one Holmes makes in his article in IJST, &quot;Trinitarian Missiology&quot;:

&lt;blockquote&gt;. . . for God to be described as missionary, the events of the gospel story must be &lt;i&gt;revelatory&lt;/i&gt; of God&#039;s eternal life, but they need not be &lt;i&gt;definitive&lt;/i&gt; of it. . . . what happens on Calvary is a repetition of the pattern of God&#039;s eternal life.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I don&#039;t think we can legitimately &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; infer from the life of Christ the nature of the Son&#039;s eternal relationship to the Father (however we construe the issue of &quot;definitiveness&quot;). To not do so seems to deny revelation in Christ at a fundamental level.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Further to this point, Brandon, I think I&#8217;m actually making a point very similar to one Holmes makes in his article in IJST, &#8220;Trinitarian Missiology&#8221;:</p>
<blockquote><p>. . . for God to be described as missionary, the events of the gospel story must be <i>revelatory</i> of God&#8217;s eternal life, but they need not be <i>definitive</i> of it. . . . what happens on Calvary is a repetition of the pattern of God&#8217;s eternal life.</p></blockquote>
<p>I don&#8217;t think we can legitimately <i>not</i> infer from the life of Christ the nature of the Son&#8217;s eternal relationship to the Father (however we construe the issue of &#8220;definitiveness&#8221;). To not do so seems to deny revelation in Christ at a fundamental level.</p>
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		<title>By: Halden</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/09/22/on-not-seeking-glory/comment-page-1/#comment-11037</link>
		<dc:creator>Halden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Sep 2009 19:11:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2936#comment-11037</guid>
		<description>Jeremy, that would seem to fit the pattern perfectly. Of course God wants us to glorify him. The whole thing is about glorifying the other rather than yourself. So to be sure God wants us to glorify him (and one another, though of course in different ways). Glorifying God and others is what true human flourishing is. Or rather, love always glorifies God and others, never self.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeremy, that would seem to fit the pattern perfectly. Of course God wants us to glorify him. The whole thing is about glorifying the other rather than yourself. So to be sure God wants us to glorify him (and one another, though of course in different ways). Glorifying God and others is what true human flourishing is. Or rather, love always glorifies God and others, never self.</p>
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		<title>By: Halden</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/09/22/on-not-seeking-glory/comment-page-1/#comment-11035</link>
		<dc:creator>Halden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Sep 2009 19:09:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2936#comment-11035</guid>
		<description>Brandon, I&#039;m confused, are you saying its not valid to infer things from the gospels about Jesus&#039;s relationship to the Father? That seems absurd to me. If that&#039;s what you mean.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brandon, I&#8217;m confused, are you saying its not valid to infer things from the gospels about Jesus&#8217;s relationship to the Father? That seems absurd to me. If that&#8217;s what you mean.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/09/22/on-not-seeking-glory/comment-page-1/#comment-11032</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Sep 2009 18:51:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2936#comment-11032</guid>
		<description>So what would you say about Lewis&#039; statement in &lt;i&gt;Reflections on the Psalms&lt;/i&gt; (which Piper credits with helping him formulate Christian Hedonism) that God demands that we glorify him because it is the culmination of our delight in him? I guess I&#039;m specifically asking how you would answer Lewis&#039; question in &lt;i&gt;Reflections&lt;/i&gt;: Why does God sometimes sound like an old woman looking for compliments?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So what would you say about Lewis&#8217; statement in <i>Reflections on the Psalms</i> (which Piper credits with helping him formulate Christian Hedonism) that God demands that we glorify him because it is the culmination of our delight in him? I guess I&#8217;m specifically asking how you would answer Lewis&#8217; question in <i>Reflections</i>: Why does God sometimes sound like an old woman looking for compliments?</p>
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		<title>By: Brandon Jones</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/09/22/on-not-seeking-glory/comment-page-1/#comment-11031</link>
		<dc:creator>Brandon Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Sep 2009 18:45:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2936#comment-11031</guid>
		<description>Halden, I&#039;m not sure this is a valid inference from the verse (John 8:50). I think this is another example of appealing to a theology of the Trinity to resolve issues in the Gospels instead of the patristic model of appealing to Christology. Stephen Holmes talks about this some in his article: &#039;Three versus one? Some problems of social trinitarianism&#039;, Journal of Reformed Theology 3.1 (2009), pp.77-89. This is not to say that Piper and company are right in their claims either, but your post looks to me like an overreaction the other way. I&#039;ve enjoyed your blog for some time, by the way, I just don&#039;t comment here often.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Halden, I&#8217;m not sure this is a valid inference from the verse (John 8:50). I think this is another example of appealing to a theology of the Trinity to resolve issues in the Gospels instead of the patristic model of appealing to Christology. Stephen Holmes talks about this some in his article: &#8216;Three versus one? Some problems of social trinitarianism&#8217;, Journal of Reformed Theology 3.1 (2009), pp.77-89. This is not to say that Piper and company are right in their claims either, but your post looks to me like an overreaction the other way. I&#8217;ve enjoyed your blog for some time, by the way, I just don&#8217;t comment here often.</p>
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		<title>By: kim fabricius</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/09/22/on-not-seeking-glory/comment-page-1/#comment-11029</link>
		<dc:creator>kim fabricius</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Sep 2009 18:24:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=2936#comment-11029</guid>
		<description>Is that a Mark Driscoll quote?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is that a Mark Driscoll quote?</p>
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