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	<title>Comments on: Final Comment on Anglo-Catholicism</title>
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	<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/11/02/final-comment-on-anglo-catholicism/</link>
	<description>Where youthful Barthianism never dies</description>
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		<title>By: Tony</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/11/02/final-comment-on-anglo-catholicism/comment-page-1/#comment-12324</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 12:03:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=3078#comment-12324</guid>
		<description>“If there’s anything I’ve learned about Anglo-Catholicism from all this its that they are one bizarre group.” 

That&#039;s the statement, in my view, which has caused all the trouble.  Dismissive and downright ungenerous, ignorant and facile in its generalization.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“If there’s anything I’ve learned about Anglo-Catholicism from all this its that they are one bizarre group.” </p>
<p>That&#8217;s the statement, in my view, which has caused all the trouble.  Dismissive and downright ungenerous, ignorant and facile in its generalization.</p>
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		<title>By: Halden</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/11/02/final-comment-on-anglo-catholicism/comment-page-1/#comment-12197</link>
		<dc:creator>Halden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 19:05:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=3078#comment-12197</guid>
		<description>Boom.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Boom.</p>
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		<title>By: R.O. Flyer</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/11/02/final-comment-on-anglo-catholicism/comment-page-1/#comment-12195</link>
		<dc:creator>R.O. Flyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 18:44:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=3078#comment-12195</guid>
		<description>Are you saying that Anglo-Catholics aren&#039;t &quot;emerging&quot;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Are you saying that Anglo-Catholics aren&#8217;t &#8220;emerging&#8221;?</p>
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		<title>By: Heather</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/11/02/final-comment-on-anglo-catholicism/comment-page-1/#comment-12193</link>
		<dc:creator>Heather</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 17:43:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=3078#comment-12193</guid>
		<description>I hope it&#039;s okay to push in and ask (from a mongrel protestant perspective) something.

Is the &quot;emerging&quot; of which you speak the current trend toward the attempt to find common ground amongst all religions?

If so, I&#039;m wondering if there is concern that after the Roman Catholic Church is done wooing &quot;stray&quot;  Christians  back into it&#039;s fold, there might not be a move to somehow make peace with non-Christian religions--thus ultimately &quot;emerging&quot; as a gigantic  inter-spiritual  conglomerate?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hope it&#8217;s okay to push in and ask (from a mongrel protestant perspective) something.</p>
<p>Is the &#8220;emerging&#8221; of which you speak the current trend toward the attempt to find common ground amongst all religions?</p>
<p>If so, I&#8217;m wondering if there is concern that after the Roman Catholic Church is done wooing &#8220;stray&#8221;  Christians  back into it&#8217;s fold, there might not be a move to somehow make peace with non-Christian religions&#8211;thus ultimately &#8220;emerging&#8221; as a gigantic  inter-spiritual  conglomerate?</p>
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		<title>By: Doug Chaplin</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/11/02/final-comment-on-anglo-catholicism/comment-page-1/#comment-12170</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug Chaplin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 23:18:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=3078#comment-12170</guid>
		<description>It is generally true of the kind of Anglo-Catholic at whom Pap Ratzi is taking aim, that they believe passionately in episcopacy, while ignoring their bishops. The advantage of staying in that state which they (rather misleadingly) call Anglican is that they can also express a passionate belief in the papacy while ignoring what the pope actually requires. Their problem is that, if they cross the Tiber, they might actually have to accept the authority of actual instantiations of episcopacy and papacy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is generally true of the kind of Anglo-Catholic at whom Pap Ratzi is taking aim, that they believe passionately in episcopacy, while ignoring their bishops. The advantage of staying in that state which they (rather misleadingly) call Anglican is that they can also express a passionate belief in the papacy while ignoring what the pope actually requires. Their problem is that, if they cross the Tiber, they might actually have to accept the authority of actual instantiations of episcopacy and papacy.</p>
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		<title>By: Halden</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/11/02/final-comment-on-anglo-catholicism/comment-page-1/#comment-12168</link>
		<dc:creator>Halden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 22:28:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=3078#comment-12168</guid>
		<description>Well, I&#039;d choose it too if &quot;emerging&quot; was my other choice!

Some sort of Walter Sobchakesque comment seems in order here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I&#8217;d choose it too if &#8220;emerging&#8221; was my other choice!</p>
<p>Some sort of Walter Sobchakesque comment seems in order here.</p>
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		<title>By: adhunt</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/11/02/final-comment-on-anglo-catholicism/comment-page-1/#comment-12167</link>
		<dc:creator>adhunt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 22:10:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=3078#comment-12167</guid>
		<description>Toward the beginning of the post you said:&lt;i&gt; &quot;If there’s anything I’ve learned about Anglo-Catholicism from all this its that they are one bizarre group.&quot;&lt;/i&gt; - and I took that to be a broader critique but upon a second reading it seems that you consistently used it to refer only to those who are ready to look to Rome.

I was, in my mind, incorporating the various discussions I have been a part of in your recent posts on the &quot;Apostolic Constitution&quot; which often as not ended up discussing the phenomenon of Anglo-catholicism in general.

I can appreciate that you don&#039;t find Anglicanism compelling.  What is hilarious to my mind is that practically everything you said that keeps you from finding Anglicanism convincing is exactly what I found compelling.  For me it was Anglicanism or &quot;emerging&quot; and I&#039;m pretty sure I made the better choice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Toward the beginning of the post you said:<i> &#8220;If there’s anything I’ve learned about Anglo-Catholicism from all this its that they are one bizarre group.&#8221;</i> &#8211; and I took that to be a broader critique but upon a second reading it seems that you consistently used it to refer only to those who are ready to look to Rome.</p>
<p>I was, in my mind, incorporating the various discussions I have been a part of in your recent posts on the &#8220;Apostolic Constitution&#8221; which often as not ended up discussing the phenomenon of Anglo-catholicism in general.</p>
<p>I can appreciate that you don&#8217;t find Anglicanism compelling.  What is hilarious to my mind is that practically everything you said that keeps you from finding Anglicanism convincing is exactly what I found compelling.  For me it was Anglicanism or &#8220;emerging&#8221; and I&#8217;m pretty sure I made the better choice.</p>
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		<title>By: Halden</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/11/02/final-comment-on-anglo-catholicism/comment-page-1/#comment-12164</link>
		<dc:creator>Halden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 21:46:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=3078#comment-12164</guid>
		<description>When did I use the term in a broad sense to refer to any and all Anglicans that consider themselves &quot;catholic&quot;? I said specifically in the post that I was talking about &quot;the sort of Anglo-Catholics who are likely to convert to Rome through this recent pronouncement.&quot;

However, since we&#039;re now talking about Anglicanism as a whole, its not that I somehow think Anglican theology is &quot;more&quot; determined by its cultural ethos than other traditions. That idea doesn&#039;t even make sense to me. The problem I have with Anglicanism (and the reason I would never become one personally) is the fundamentally national nature of the ethos itself that I find problematic as a unifying principle. The problem is not that Anglicanism is &quot;determined by context&quot; the problem is the material nature of the tradition itself. You&#039;ve down a perfectly fine job of showing how diverse Anglicanism is, but that just makes my point. For all its diversity what does the various parts of Anglicanism have in common? What makes them some sort of unity? Clearly it isn&#039;t episcopacy, or even a firmly articulated body of doctrine as Anglicanism, by its very nature tries to make room for about any theological belief possible. 

The only thing that I see unifying Anglicanism is a vague sense of &quot;Anglicanness&quot; that is deeply rooted in a kind of nostalgic Anglophile sentiment. This isn&#039;t to say that I don&#039;t appreciate Anglicanism and many of the great things its produced (I love Rowan Williams and N.T. Wright and many other Anglican thinkers). Merely to say that what defines Anglicanism doesn&#039;t seem to be doctrine or even specific ecclesial practice. Rather it is a sort of sentiment, deeply rooted in a kind of Anglo-Saxon ethos. That&#039;s not the worst thing in the world or anything. I just don&#039;t find it theologically compelling.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When did I use the term in a broad sense to refer to any and all Anglicans that consider themselves &#8220;catholic&#8221;? I said specifically in the post that I was talking about &#8220;the sort of Anglo-Catholics who are likely to convert to Rome through this recent pronouncement.&#8221;</p>
<p>However, since we&#8217;re now talking about Anglicanism as a whole, its not that I somehow think Anglican theology is &#8220;more&#8221; determined by its cultural ethos than other traditions. That idea doesn&#8217;t even make sense to me. The problem I have with Anglicanism (and the reason I would never become one personally) is the fundamentally national nature of the ethos itself that I find problematic as a unifying principle. The problem is not that Anglicanism is &#8220;determined by context&#8221; the problem is the material nature of the tradition itself. You&#8217;ve down a perfectly fine job of showing how diverse Anglicanism is, but that just makes my point. For all its diversity what does the various parts of Anglicanism have in common? What makes them some sort of unity? Clearly it isn&#8217;t episcopacy, or even a firmly articulated body of doctrine as Anglicanism, by its very nature tries to make room for about any theological belief possible. </p>
<p>The only thing that I see unifying Anglicanism is a vague sense of &#8220;Anglicanness&#8221; that is deeply rooted in a kind of nostalgic Anglophile sentiment. This isn&#8217;t to say that I don&#8217;t appreciate Anglicanism and many of the great things its produced (I love Rowan Williams and N.T. Wright and many other Anglican thinkers). Merely to say that what defines Anglicanism doesn&#8217;t seem to be doctrine or even specific ecclesial practice. Rather it is a sort of sentiment, deeply rooted in a kind of Anglo-Saxon ethos. That&#8217;s not the worst thing in the world or anything. I just don&#8217;t find it theologically compelling.</p>
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		<title>By: adhunt</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/11/02/final-comment-on-anglo-catholicism/comment-page-1/#comment-12161</link>
		<dc:creator>adhunt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 21:24:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=3078#comment-12161</guid>
		<description>Sorry, I had to throw a response down here as there was no response button above.  Really I don&#039;t have a pathological desire to defend all things which could fall under an &quot;anglo-catholic&quot; moniker.  It&#039;s not like I&#039;m trying to protect my children or something.  I&#039;m just trying to critique what you&#039;re saying in your post.  That seems to me to be the point of comment threads.

And so in the end I don&#039;t give a damn what you call those Anglicans who would have swum the Tiber long ago but for their own sense of aesthetics; call them &#039;catholics,&#039; I call them &#039;papists,&#039; but that isn&#039;t the larger point.  What I&#039;m trying to do is draw out your critiques and show how they can&#039;t be used in the broad sense that you tend to use them.  You seem to say that the &quot;Anglo&quot; is far too determinative for your sensibilities.  Presumably more determinative than in other Traditions, otherwise what would be the point of the critique?

I fail to see how &quot;anglo-catholic&quot; theology is any more determined by context than any other Tradition and so I feel that if we want to extend a critique to a larger stream of Anglican thought which would fall into a self-described &quot;catholic&quot; category you&#039;re just going to have to do better.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, I had to throw a response down here as there was no response button above.  Really I don&#8217;t have a pathological desire to defend all things which could fall under an &#8220;anglo-catholic&#8221; moniker.  It&#8217;s not like I&#8217;m trying to protect my children or something.  I&#8217;m just trying to critique what you&#8217;re saying in your post.  That seems to me to be the point of comment threads.</p>
<p>And so in the end I don&#8217;t give a damn what you call those Anglicans who would have swum the Tiber long ago but for their own sense of aesthetics; call them &#8216;catholics,&#8217; I call them &#8216;papists,&#8217; but that isn&#8217;t the larger point.  What I&#8217;m trying to do is draw out your critiques and show how they can&#8217;t be used in the broad sense that you tend to use them.  You seem to say that the &#8220;Anglo&#8221; is far too determinative for your sensibilities.  Presumably more determinative than in other Traditions, otherwise what would be the point of the critique?</p>
<p>I fail to see how &#8220;anglo-catholic&#8221; theology is any more determined by context than any other Tradition and so I feel that if we want to extend a critique to a larger stream of Anglican thought which would fall into a self-described &#8220;catholic&#8221; category you&#8217;re just going to have to do better.</p>
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		<title>By: Halden</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/11/02/final-comment-on-anglo-catholicism/comment-page-1/#comment-12158</link>
		<dc:creator>Halden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 21:01:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=3078#comment-12158</guid>
		<description>I really don&#039;t have a dog in the fight among Anglicans over who ought to be called what. I&#039;m just going with the terminology that&#039;s the most common and ordinarily understood, not trying to speak into whatever construals of catholicity that some Anglicans, such as yourself may be trying to advance. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really don&#8217;t have a dog in the fight among Anglicans over who ought to be called what. I&#8217;m just going with the terminology that&#8217;s the most common and ordinarily understood, not trying to speak into whatever construals of catholicity that some Anglicans, such as yourself may be trying to advance.</p>
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		<title>By: adhunt</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/11/02/final-comment-on-anglo-catholicism/comment-page-1/#comment-12157</link>
		<dc:creator>adhunt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 20:56:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=3078#comment-12157</guid>
		<description>Then it is really about anglo-papists not &quot;anglo-catholicism&quot; either theologically or phenemenologically considered.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Then it is really about anglo-papists not &#8220;anglo-catholicism&#8221; either theologically or phenemenologically considered.</p>
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		<title>By: Halden</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/11/02/final-comment-on-anglo-catholicism/comment-page-1/#comment-12156</link>
		<dc:creator>Halden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 20:48:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=3078#comment-12156</guid>
		<description>I did. In the post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I did. In the post.</p>
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		<title>By: adhunt</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/11/02/final-comment-on-anglo-catholicism/comment-page-1/#comment-12155</link>
		<dc:creator>adhunt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 20:42:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=3078#comment-12155</guid>
		<description>Well make a point then.  Is your beef with anglo-papists who should have converted a long time ago or with Anglicans who seek to anchor their Ecclesial self understanding in a trajectory provided as much by the Patristic horizon as the Reformation horizon?  Who see boring things like Episcopacy as more than fanciful convenience and who are interested in asserting a continuance rather than rupture during Henry&#039;s wife problems?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well make a point then.  Is your beef with anglo-papists who should have converted a long time ago or with Anglicans who seek to anchor their Ecclesial self understanding in a trajectory provided as much by the Patristic horizon as the Reformation horizon?  Who see boring things like Episcopacy as more than fanciful convenience and who are interested in asserting a continuance rather than rupture during Henry&#8217;s wife problems?</p>
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		<title>By: Halden</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/11/02/final-comment-on-anglo-catholicism/comment-page-1/#comment-12153</link>
		<dc:creator>Halden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 20:29:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=3078#comment-12153</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t claim to be an expert on Anglo-Catholicism, but I don&#039;t think that any of the points I&#039;m making require some sort of massive historical pedigree. Or at least I&#039;d have to be shown how intimate knowledge of the specifics of Anglican history would substantially alter or challenge the point.

And the problem isn&#039;t that there&#039;s a cultural aesthetic. Of course there is. The issue is how much importance is accorded to it (esp wrt the issue under discussion). I  don&#039;t see much reason to find a tradition theologically compelling when its primary unifying principle is a sort of ethnically-based mood.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t claim to be an expert on Anglo-Catholicism, but I don&#8217;t think that any of the points I&#8217;m making require some sort of massive historical pedigree. Or at least I&#8217;d have to be shown how intimate knowledge of the specifics of Anglican history would substantially alter or challenge the point.</p>
<p>And the problem isn&#8217;t that there&#8217;s a cultural aesthetic. Of course there is. The issue is how much importance is accorded to it (esp wrt the issue under discussion). I  don&#8217;t see much reason to find a tradition theologically compelling when its primary unifying principle is a sort of ethnically-based mood.</p>
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		<title>By: Theophilus</title>
		<link>http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/2009/11/02/final-comment-on-anglo-catholicism/comment-page-1/#comment-12151</link>
		<dc:creator>Theophilus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 20:22:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.inhabitatiodei.com/?p=3078#comment-12151</guid>
		<description>Interestingly enough Rowan Williams&#039; speech about the potential &quot;two tracks&quot; within the Anglican Communion drew out similar concerns among Anglicans - in that case, how track-one, orthodox Anglicans (individuals, parishes, or dioceses) in track-two settings (the assumption was that this would include The Episcopal Church and the Anglican Church of Canada) deal with matters of ecclesial authority. The more things change…</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interestingly enough Rowan Williams&#8217; speech about the potential &#8220;two tracks&#8221; within the Anglican Communion drew out similar concerns among Anglicans &#8211; in that case, how track-one, orthodox Anglicans (individuals, parishes, or dioceses) in track-two settings (the assumption was that this would include The Episcopal Church and the Anglican Church of Canada) deal with matters of ecclesial authority. The more things change…</p>
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